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Coca-Cola
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(Originally posted on: 03-19-03 11:49:58 PM)
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As I am not a homophobe and know people who are gay / lesbian / bisexual, I was very shocked today when I was told that somebody's lifestyle was wrong. She attributed this belief to the Holy Bible.
Quote:
in the bible it clearly states that homosexuality is wrong- God didn't create people to be gay

I take the Bible with a grain of salt and belive that people can live whatever lifestyle they choose. What do others think about this religious dilemma?
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Reply 1 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-20-03 02:04:29 AM)
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If two people of the same sex want to engage in sexual activities, its no one right to tell them they can't. People may feel any way they wish about homosexuality for any reason they want, but they can not try to force others to live by their beliefs.
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Reply 2 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-20-03 06:33:23 AM)
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I take the Bible with a grain of salt and belive that people can live whatever lifestyle they choose.


I hold to the belief that god didn't write the bible, and a bunch of homophobic jewish priests did. Well, the homophobic priests wrote the book of deuteronomy, anyway.

This is a related note, but I believe that christian fundamentalists on the internet have biased me against christians in general. I made the decision that I am not a christian a year or two ago, based on personal beliefs. Some of the incentive to do that were christian fundamentalists who believe that homosexuals should burn in hell. Well, I hate to fucking break it to you, but very often homosexuality isn't a choice, it's how we're wired. It's more or less like how people who wrote with their left hand were considered to be of the devil. Jesus, the church got over that, didn't they? Surely they can get over homosexuality too.

When I discussed this with my mother the other night - who is I thought a very strong christian - she expressed sadness that I had decided I didn't want to be christian based on the fact that certain extreme christians thought something. Well, that wasn't the only reason, just one of many. But it stuck in my mind. I'm not going to blame christian fundamentalists or Gwahir or Fett. I think they contributed unnecessarily though. My fault for being stupid and assuming all christians (well, catholics at least) share similar beliefs. Well, oops?

No, I don't see anything wrong with it at all. I really don't like the gay lifestyle - but being a generic male admittedly I find the concept of the lesbian one interesting - but I believe people should have the freedom to live how they want.
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Reply 3 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-20-03 12:17:49 PM)
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I'm not Christian nor Jew, so the Bible has little meaning for me in that level. In my opinion there's nothing wrong with gay / lesbian / bisexual people.
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Reply 4 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-20-03 12:48:39 PM)
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I'm a Catholic, but am I a Catholic? I skipped over grade 8 of Sunday school because the teacher said that homosexuals were spawn of the devil. That kind of biggotory pisses me off so I just quit. Not all Catholics or Christians are like that either by the way.

So I'm a Catholic with my own views, not an ex-Christian. I think that it's still possible to believe in God and Jesus, love thy neighbor, and show up at church once and a while without being a gay-bashing homophobe.

I hope I don't offend any strong believers in the Bible here, but I've found out some interesting stuff about it. Apparently it's not even complete (the new found scrolls were never included), and what is there can be interpreted in many different ways when translated from the original Hebrew text. With no disrespect intended to the Book, it is all one huge ambiguity. It should still be used to live a good life by, but like I said before, should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Reply 5 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-20-03 01:41:43 PM)
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I think its the person's choice to bet whatever they wnat and no one has the right to tell them it is wrong. Besides, if people still followed the bible exactly, women would still only be allowed to cook and clean the house and wouldn't be allowed to have jobs or go out or any other things of the sort.
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Reply 6 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-20-03 04:21:49 PM)
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you say homphobic jewish priests... first of all i know prominent gay jews second of all anyone who says someone elses lifestyle is wrong and that person isnt killing, assaulting, hurting others. the sayer of wrong lifestyle should have their balls chewed off by a goat
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Reply 7 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-20-03 05:05:10 PM)
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I think the church is against gays, not God.
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Reply 8 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-20-03 05:20:25 PM)
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Quote:
you say homphobic jewish priests... first of all i know prominent gay jews

What point are you trying to make here?

I agree, if they are two consenting adults, then they should be able to do whatever they wish.

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Well Danielle, when you turned your back on our religion and basically questioned all of our values and practically insulted our whole sense of faith and our lifestyle, we were alright with that, we let that slide. THEN you came and said that you're attracted to women, we thought that was questionable, but we could get used to it. But the day that you have pornographic videos on your computer, YOU'RE FUCKING OUT. - Danielle's parents

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Reply 9 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-20-03 05:34:43 PM)
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Regarding the passage from Deuteronomy, here's a bit of a history lesson for you.

Back in the time when the jews were wandering around and the book of Deuteronomy was written, many of the tribes (the pagans) that they perceived as "opposing" them (well yeah, they were traipsing all over their territories!) practiced ritual homosexuality as part of their religion (along with other things like orgies). Thus, according to some biblical scholars, the indiction against homosexuality in the bible is actually an indiction against paganism.

Of course, many christian groups choose to ignore this, and many right wing christian groups, when speaking of homosexuality, actually switch to a different translation of the bible than that which they use normally so has to have that part written in what sounds like a very clear-cut manner. Keep in mind that the old testament was originally written in Hebrew, and there are not always easy translations for some of the words.

A second theory put forth by some avant-garde biblical scholars, relating to the first theory, is that the bible *is* in fact prohibiting homosexual practices, but only among heterosexuals, who would have to reason to do so other than paganistic practices.
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Reply 10 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-20-03 07:08:21 PM)
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To me it's no question that Homosexuality is not natural. Nature didn't intend for people of the same sex to fuck. I don't base this on religon because I have no religon. I base it on common sense. If everyone was gay the human race would die out. You can argue about artificial insemination but that in itself isn't natural either.

However, who says nature should run the way we live and choose to live? Hell I fuck my gf in the ass (if shes horny enough) and that's just as unnatural as a man doing it to another man, a sexual act that bears no significance to PROCREATING. Birth control pills, condoms, ect. For me to say it's wrong to have gay sex because it's unnatural, would be to say that condoms are wrong, birth control pills are wrong and I'm wrong for getting and giving oral and fuckin my gf in the ass. Which would make me a hypocrite. So I don't belive it is wrong at all. If we did everything the way nature intended we'd be living in the stoneage. No it's not wrong but no it's not natural. That's my opinion.
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Reply 11 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-20-03 10:09:28 PM)
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I don't think we'll find anyone here who thinks it's 'wrong' to be gay or lesbian. It seems like most people really don't care one way or the other. In my opinion, that's a welcome change.
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Reply 12 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-21-03 12:40:20 AM)
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Dimi i only went on about the "homosexual jews comment" because after the purim thread i was kinda pissed over it then i read that
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Reply 13 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-21-03 02:25:16 AM)
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Quoted from zero:
you say homphobic jewish priests... first of all i know prominent gay jews second of all anyone who says someone elses lifestyle is wrong and that person isnt killing, assaulting, hurting others. the sayer of wrong lifestyle should have their balls chewed off by a goat


I bet there weren't any prominent gay jews when the book of deuteronomy was written, because they probably wouldn't have lived very long. Which is where I refer to a homophobic jewish theocracy, several thousand years ago, entirely out of touch with today's society. Hence the comments in the bible that being gay is wrong are entirely out of touch with today's world and I don't see why christians should put any stock on them.


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Reply 14 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-21-03 05:50:36 PM)
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The bible is full of crap. I think it was one of the worlds best hoaxes. What better way to fuck up a entire world. (Does is actualy it say two people of the same sex cant get it on?)
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Reply 15 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-21-03 06:40:03 PM)
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To tell you all the truth, I've never actually read or even really skimmed the Bible. Somehow I don't want to put it down as I've been taught for so long that badmouthing the Bible is really wrong. I don't believe everything it says, but when I hold a bible in my hand I feel like it's something special and powerful.
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Reply 16 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-21-03 07:40:59 PM)
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Quoted from Sage:
The bible is full of crap. I think it was one of the worlds best hoaxes. What better way to fuck up a entire world. (Does is actualy it say two people of the same sex cant get it on?)


Yes, it does. It is the reason that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, (which is where "sodomy" comes from I believe) and is forbade several times in other books...Leviticus 18:22-23; 20:13, Judges 19:22-24, several times in Samuel, Romans 1:24-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Timothy 1:10 to name a few.
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Reply 17 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-21-03 07:48:12 PM)
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Quoted from Coca-Cola:
To tell you all the truth, I've never actually read or even really skimmed the Bible. Somehow I don't want to put it down as I've been taught for so long that badmouthing the Bible is really wrong. I don't believe everything it says, but when I hold a bible in my hand I feel like it's something special and powerful.


Im not religious, but I won't deny that the bible and the church serve a great purpose to society. Knocking the bible as it is taken literally is understandable but for the most part the bible teaches many moral lessons that shouldn't be ignored just because you don't belive in God. The church and faith in God whether he exists or not has served many purposes, rahabilitation and things of that nature. Finding God personally has turned around SOOOO many people it is a miracle within itself, so it has it's place because if that's what it takes to heal people of their unlawfull ways, it's good enough for me. The bible does its best work when it isn't taken literally, but the lessons and morals are learned. I do belive the term "the good book" is accurate on the whole.

The other side of this religous fence, the negative side lies in people who think they have the right to force their belifes on others, and it goes farther than just religeon, racist belifes, superficial belifes, anti-war or abortion belifes. Make your point, you have that right, but when you are literally forcing these belifes on others you are in the wrong. You can judge people aswell, if it is your personal belife that black people are inferior to white people you can shout it off the mountain top and I don't care, good for you, you have an ignorant opinion, just keep it within the law and stay within your rights or piss off. And then we come back to good 'ol homosexuality. If you belive homosexuality is wrong, rock on man, hell in the grand scheme of things it may be, you have the freedome of speech and are intitled to whatever horseshit opinion you want to have, but the second you break the law by opressing these people, or assaulting them or anything of that nature you are immediately in the wrong.

So is it right or wrong? Fuck if I care, all I know is that it's more wrong to physically attack or opress someone for being what they are. When two gay men get together, and are out for a date, they deserve in no way to be assaulted or abused or even INSULTED. There are no victims to this "CRIME AGAINST NATURE". We are all created equal, so lets act like it. Amen?
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Reply 18 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-21-03 08:26:57 PM)
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Quoted from peach:
I think the church is against gays, not God.


Indeed.
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Reply 19 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-21-03 10:14:13 PM)
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Quoted from dramamine:
Quoted from Sage:
The bible is full of crap. I think it was one of the worlds best hoaxes. What better way to fuck up a entire world. (Does is actualy it say two people of the same sex cant get it on?)


Yes, it does. It is the reason that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, (which is where "sodomy" comes from I believe) and is forbade several times in other books...Leviticus 18:22-23; 20:13, Judges 19:22-24, several times in Samuel, Romans 1:24-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Timothy 1:10 to name a few.



Good to know, I wasnt even aware.
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Reply 20 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-21-03 10:31:34 PM)
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Quote:
What do others think about this religious dilemma?

Two most important lessons in the Bible:
1. "Love thy neighbor as thy self."
2. "Judge not lest ye be judged."

That being said, homophobic fundamentalist "Christians" are not even Christians at all. They are hypocrites who are not only ignoring the Message that they are supposedly defending and preaching, but they are also usurping God's power to judge.

Don't worry; they'll get theirs.
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Reply 21 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-23-03 02:55:51 PM)
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In reference to the Sodom and Gomorrah thing, if it hadn't been for the fact that a) the men turned completely away from God, b) the men were having sex with each other and so were the women, and c) the men tried to fuck angels; then maybe both cities would still be around. If you tried to fuck my angel, then I wouldn't like you or the things you did too much either.

But as my friends and many other people put it when I finally came out of the closet, "Love the person, hate the sin."
Quoted from Oscar Wilde:
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Reply 22 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-23-03 03:55:34 PM)
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Love the person, hate the sin is a load of bullshit (pardon me for swearing in SD). Seriously though, if you say you love the person yet hate their "sin" you obviously can't accept who they are and consequently cannot truly love them, therefore making you a hypocrite.
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Reply 23 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-23-03 06:29:42 PM)
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Actually, it's not for anyone on this planet to hate any sin. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Point is, everyone is a sinner and it specifically says that no one sin is greater in value; therefore, even if homosexuality is a sin, it's no worse than anyone else.
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Reply 24 of 71 (Originally posted on: 03-23-03 07:25:09 PM)
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Quoted from Skye:
In reference to the Sodom and Gomorrah thing, if it hadn't been for the fact that a) the men turned completely away from God, b) the men were having sex with each other and so were the women, and c) the men tried to fuck angels; then maybe both cities would still be around. If you tried to fuck my angel, then I wouldn't like you or the things you did too much either.


i still dont see the need to wipe them out of existance. millions of people turn their backs on god, millions of men have sex with men, million of women with women. the system is in place pretty well, you dont believe in god and his rules then when you die you'll get what you were warned you would get. no need to obliterate entire cities. and even if it is justified, where are all the fireballs from heaven now? certainly man places in the world 'deserve' it as much as they did then.

im certain any angel that got caught and raped by a mere human wasnt fighting back very hard.
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