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Acheron
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(Originally posted on: 12-06-07 07:00:26 PM)
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Vissario, there is a logical fallacy of which you are consistently guilty. Cut it the fuck out.

You almost never reply to someone's actual argument. You distort anything that happens to be an opposing view so that it becomes easier for you to attack.

This is called the fallacy of the straw man. What this means is that rather than attacking someone's argument, you attack something completely different and then PRETEND that you've refuted the argument. That's OK in ID if you want people to hate you, but it is inexcusable in an actual debate.

EXAMPLES OF THE VISSARIO STRAW MAN ATTACK FROM ACTUAL DEBATES IN THIS THREAD ALONE:

webturbo: Our differences are what make us interesting.
Vissario: Indeed! War, racism, descrimination, poverty, and nationalism are all good institutions which must be protected at all costs!


In this post, webturbo was talking about things like different forms of music, food, culture, and the advancements that come from different cultures in those or other areas, how having more than a monoculture is interesting.

You decided that rather than talking about culture, he was talking about war. This is a distortion of his argument, this was NOT what he was talking about.


Scarlet: We could just educate people not to discriminate against others for their differences

VissarioSo that is why racism and descrimination are gone in the modern world!


Scarlet was arguing for the creation of a system where racial differences would be eliminated through education.

You claimed that it has already been tried, and has failed, while she seemed to argue that it needs to be done better if it's failing. You ignored this.

There are countless other examples, but these work just fine.

I'm going to speak to you now in very short simple words and sentences so that there will be no misunderstanding.


Stop changing what we say when you respond to our arguments, because you're not actually arguing when you do that, you're being dishonest. Use logic, not rhetoric, to refute our arguments.

If that doesn't come across clearly:

Pay attention to what we fucking say and stop getting it fucking wrong, asshole.
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This reply was last edited on 12-06-07 07:06:50 PM by Acheron.
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Reply 1 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-06-07 07:45:00 PM)
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I agree.

We're all guilty of fallacies, but not quite as much as vissario.
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Reply 2 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-06-07 08:05:32 PM)
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I wanna see what he pulls out of his ass for this.
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Reply 3 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-06-07 08:57:01 PM)
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Quoted from Snook:
I wanna see what he pulls out of his ass for this.


probably a dick
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Reply 4 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-06-07 09:46:27 PM)
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Because, as we've all learned by now, the internet is serious business.
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Reply 5 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-06-07 09:54:55 PM)
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I judge my life worth by the karma on this website.
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Reply 6 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-06-07 10:56:05 PM)
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Quoted from Alyantis:
I judge my life worth by the karma on this website.


You're not worth much, then.
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Reply 7 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-06-07 11:08:11 PM)
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Reply 8 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-06-07 11:14:12 PM)
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Quoted from Snook:
Quoted from Alyantis:
I judge my life worth by the karma on this website.


You're not worth much, then.



Neither are you.

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Reply 9 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-06-07 11:30:00 PM)
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Quoted from emtilt:
Because, as we've all learned by now, the internet is serious business.

This needed repeating.
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Reply 10 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-06-07 11:54:43 PM)
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Quoted from emtilt:
Because, as we've all learned by now, the internet is serious business.
This has been the cool attitude on the internet for a couple years. I'm expecting it to turn to the internet actually being serious business with thesis papers about the controversies that occur on internet forums any day now.


IF0, how's your paper writing going?
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Reply 11 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 01:23:11 AM)
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Quoted from Chimp:
Quoted from emtilt:
Because, as we've all learned by now, the internet is serious business.
This has been the cool attitude on the internet for a couple years. I'm expecting it to turn to the internet actually being serious business with thesis papers about the controversies that occur on internet forums any day now.


IF0, how's your paper writing going?


Yeah, agreed. A number of my professors are beginning to study the internet and even more of students I know are writing serious academic papers on it, with exceptionally rigorous research and analytical acumen...including myself.
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Reply 12 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 02:46:04 AM)
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The internet is going to be the salvation of free men. its going to be the noose around the neck of propoganda and indoctrination, that they can┤t control.

for instance, sources as www.zeitgeistmovie.com would never see a broad enough audience without the internet.

internet censorship is going to be a bitch to manage for future ruling classes.

PS, why bitch about vissario? its not like he┤ll change his shtick or anything
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Reply 13 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 04:08:56 AM)
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You assume vissario's goal is to "win" debates, instead of to annoy the likes of you, Acheron. When you have that goal in mind, this straw man thing is not a fallacy, just a very effective tool. You two make an interesting couple.
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Reply 14 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 06:20:31 AM)
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Quoted from Acheron:
webturbo: Our differences are what make us interesting.
Vissario: Indeed! War, racism, discrimination, poverty, and nationalism are all good institutions which must be protected at all costs!

In this post, webturbo was talking about things like different forms of music, food, culture, and the advancements that come from different cultures in those or other areas, how having more than a monoculture is interesting.

You decided that rather than talking about culture, he was talking about war. This is a distortion of his argument, this was NOT what he was talking about.



If you advocate that preserving cultures is important, than you obviously support measures close to or associated with nationalism, discrimination, and the like because they, and only they, effectively preserve cultures from being combined with others or destroyed. You can't eat a pie without first being a pie-eater.

Quoted from Acheron:
Scarlet: We could just educate people not to discriminate against others for their differences

VissarioSo that is why racism and discrimination are gone in the modern world!

Scarlet was arguing for the creation of a system where racial differences would be eliminated through education.

You claimed that it has already been tried, and has failed, while she seemed to argue that it needs to be done better if it's failing. You ignored this.



The fallacy of his (or her, I'm not sure) argument is that it assumes education has furthered the agenda of eliminating racism. Let me repeat that, it assumed something to be true without first proving its claim. If you don't know, that is the begging the question logical fallacy. Therefore, when I made the statement "So that is why racism and discrimination are gone in the modern world!", I was attempting to point out that line of reasoning which I have described above.

Quoted from Snook:
I wanna see what he pulls out of his ass for this.


Refer to the statements above.
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Reply 15 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 06:51:03 AM)
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Quote:
If you advocate that preserving cultures is important, than you obviously support measures close to or associated with nationalism, discrimination, and the like because they, and only they, effectively preserve cultures from being combined with others or destroyed.

Nothing effectively preserves a culture from being influenced by and combined with others.

At least not for very long.
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Reply 16 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 06:57:04 AM)
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Quoted from Mingan:
The internet is going to be the salvation of free men. its going to be the noose around the neck of propoganda and indoctrination, that they can┤t control.

for instance, sources as www.zeitgeistmovie.com would never see a broad enough audience without the internet.

internet censorship is going to be a bitch to manage for future ruling classes.

PS, why bitch about vissario? its not like he┤ll change his shtick or anything


Unlikely; governments like the PRC and IRG are already devising ingenius ways to curtail and control the Internet viewship in their own borders. Even here, in the West, European regimes do an excellent job closing down Holocaust revisionist sites based in their own countries and virtually every nation is guilty of oppressing pornography websites they find "deviant". If anything, the Internet will just be another medium by which to control and influence people. American consumerism and materialism is far more widespread today than it was fifty years ago primarilly because of T.V., movies, and teh Internet.
Acheron
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Reply 17 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 06:57:16 AM)
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Quoted from vissario:
If you advocate that preserving cultures is important, than you obviously support measures close to or associated with nationalism, discrimination, and the like because they, and only they, effectively preserve cultures from being combined with others or destroyed.


Wrong. No one was arguing FOR the rigid maintenance of cultures.

We were only arguing AGAINST the forced destruction of cultures. There's a big difference. If culture's blend naturally, that's OK, just don't force it to happen.

You're putting words in webturbo's mouth.

And now on to the second response.

Quoted from vissario:
The fallacy of his (or her, I'm not sure) argument is that it assumes education has furthered the agenda of eliminating racism.


Wrong again! Here, scarlet was saying that education SHOULD be used to eliminate racism, not that it HAS been used to do so.

Though if you think about it, having to go to class with black people made white people more tolerant of being around them. So tolerant in fact, that many of them end up dating marrying, or just plain fucking the black students!learn u some stuff ok??

Honestly vissario, you need to read and pay attention to what others are posting so that you can come up with an intelligent response rather than a knee-jerk off-the-wall irrelevant response.

So once again: Stop being a fucking idiot.
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Reply 18 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 07:30:46 AM)
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Quoted from Acheron:
Wrong again! Here, scarlet was saying that education SHOULD be used to eliminate racism, not that it HAS been used to do so.

Though if you think about it, having to go to class with black people made white people more tolerant of being around them. So tolerant in fact, that many of them end up dating marrying, or just plain fucking the black students!

Honestly vissario, you need to read and pay attention to what others are posting so that you can come up with an intelligent response rather than a knee-jerk off-the-wall irrelevant response.


Good point Acheron.

Thus the "Jena Six", thus constant reports of racism in schools, and thus the unending complaints by black people that "default" segregation still exists. Racism isn't ended by education, it is ostracized and made into an underground movement which then makes it even harder to identify.

Quoted from Acheron:
Wrong. No one was arguing FOR the rigid maintenance of cultures.

We were only arguing AGAINST the forced destruction of cultures. There's a big difference. If culture's blend naturally, that's OK, just don't force it to happen.


Now you're putting words in my mouth; I never said cultures should be forcibly destroyed. What I did say, however, was that humans should voluntarily give up their petty notions of cultural superiority in favor of a broad Terran culture.

And yes, Webturbo was arguing against this idealized "change" in culture because he felt it would destroy his "uniquness" in terms of his culture.
Acheron
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Reply 19 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 08:00:15 AM)
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Quoted from vissario:
Quoted from Acheron:
Wrong again! Here, scarlet was saying that education SHOULD be used to eliminate racism, not that it HAS been used to do so.

Though if you think about it, having to go to class with black people made white people more tolerant of being around them. So tolerant in fact, that many of them end up dating marrying, or just plain fucking the black students!

Honestly vissario, you need to read and pay attention to what others are posting so that you can come up with an intelligent response rather than a knee-jerk off-the-wall irrelevant response.


Good point Acheron.

Thus blah blah racism still exists blah blah


1) This is not the point.

The point is that education needs to do more than it has already done.

I will say this again since you don't seem to understand it.

Education has not solved the problem we call racism, and it needs to do more to solve that problem.

2)AGAIN with the straw man. I didn't say that education solved the problem of racism. I said it helped.

Aren't lynchings relatively few in the south nowadays?

They are, ergo, progress. Progress does not mean the problem has been solved.

Quoted from StrawMan:
Quoted from Acheron:
Wrong. No one was arguing FOR the rigid maintenance of cultures.

We were only arguing AGAINST the forced destruction of cultures. There's a big difference. If culture's blend naturally, that's OK, just don't force it to happen.


Now you're putting words in my mouth; I never said cultures should be forcibly destroyed.


This is, once again, not the point.

Brilliant deflection, by the way. The argument here is NOT for nationalism and racism, it's a simple statement that unique cultures are beautiful and interesting. YOU took it to be something completely different.

You just complained about me doing to you what you do to everyone else on a regular basis. Thank you for falling so perfectly into the trap.

And you just responded in the same way we respond to you. "I never said X, I said Y." Do you know how often we have to say this to you just to make our points understood?

What is your problem, are you too stupid to read and comprehend a simple argument, or do you just enjoy being an asshole?

Cut it out.
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Reply 20 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 08:10:46 AM)
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let's see here, we have a claim:
Quoted from vissario:
obviously support... nationalism, discrimination... because they, and only they, effectively preserve cultures


that appears to be based on an unproven assertion. I don't know if you knew this, vissario, but that is known as the begging the question fallacy, which, as someone in this thread has already said (you should really read the threads more thoroughly so you don't miss stuff like this) is when an argument has:

Quoted from vissario:
assumed something to be true without first proving its claim.



anyway, good luck on your Speech and Debate exam! I see you've been studying!
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Reply 21 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 08:12:37 AM)
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Quote:
1) This is not the point.

The point is that education needs to do more than it has already done.

I will say this again since you don't seem to understand it.

Education has not solved the problem we call racism, and it needs to do more to solve that problem.

2)AGAIN with the straw man. I didn't say that education solved the problem of racism. I said it helped.

Aren't lynchings relatively few in the south nowadays?

They are, ergo, progress. Progress does not mean the problem has been solved.



If education has not solved the problem, what evidence is there to support that it will eventually do so?

Blind faith?

Acheron-Auto-Response: Of course not! Progressivism has never, is not, and will never be wrong you reactionary fascist!

Quoted from acheron:
This is, once again, not the point.

Brilliant deflection, by the way. The argument here is NOT for nationalism and racism, it's a simple statement that unique cultures are beautiful and interesting. YOU took it to be something completely different.



So when he says he wants to preserve his cultural uniqueness he is not saying he supports policies aimed at preserving it.

doubletalk at its finest
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Reply 22 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 08:19:13 AM)
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Quote:
that appears to be based on an unproven assertion. I don't know if you knew this, vissario, but that is known as the begging the question fallacy, which, as someone in this thread has already said (you should really read the threads more thoroughly so you don't miss stuff like this) is when an argument has:


-people who want to preserve their culture are inherently xenophobic towards other cultural ideas
-webturbo wants to preserve his culture
-therefore, webturbo is xenophobic towards other cultural ideas

from that;

-people who are xenophobic towards other cultural ideas share similarities to nationalists and racists in their reactionary idealoguing against what is "foreign"
-webturbo is xenophobic towards other cultures
-therefore, webturbo is similar to nationalists and racists

one more time folks;

-people who are nationalistic and racist tend to support measurs which preserve the cultural congruity they favor
-webturbo is similar to nationalistic and racist people
-therefore, webturbo supports measures aimed at preserving cultural congruity
This reply was last edited on 12-07-07 08:32:50 AM by atlas sighed (at me).
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Reply 23 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 08:26:26 AM)
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Quote:
from that;

-people who are xenophobic towards other cultural ideas share similarities to nationalists and racists in their reactionary idealoguing against what is "foreign"
-webturbo is xenophobic towards other cultures
-therefore, webturbo is similar to nationalists and racists

one more time folks;

-people who are nationalistic and racist tend to support measurs which preserve the cultural congruity they favor
-webturbo is nationalistic and racist
-therefore, webturbo supports measures aimed at preserving cultural congruity


No, all you have is "webturbo is similar to people who tend to support measures which preserve the cultural congruity they favor"
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Reply 24 of 61 (Originally posted on: 12-07-07 08:32:18 AM)
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Quoted from ice:
Quote:
from that;

-people who are xenophobic towards other cultural ideas share similarities to nationalists and racists in their reactionary idealoguing against what is "foreign"
-webturbo is xenophobic towards other cultures
-therefore, webturbo is similar to nationalists and racists

one more time folks;

-people who are nationalistic and racist tend to support measurs which preserve the cultural congruity they favor
-webturbo is nationalistic and racist
-therefore, webturbo supports measures aimed at preserving cultural congruity


No, all you have is "webturbo is similar to people who tend to support measures which preserve the cultural congruity they favor"


Correct, semantics error fixed
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