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(Originally posted on: 10-05-07 12:49:04 AM)
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So, Professor Dawkins himself was on my campus a while back. And I got a signed copy of BOTH The God Delusion and The Selfish Gene.

The debate itself was awful. The format was such that give-and-take was impossible. Lennox, Dawkins' opponent, got to spew tripe while Dawkins didn't get a chance to respond because the format forced him to move on to the next topic.

But, considering how lame it was, Dawkins held his own and then some.

Lennox made a mediocre case for deism (prime mover, physical constants, etc blah etc), but then he suddenly jumped into Jesus Christ mode without any logical progression from deism to theism. Assuming a God does exist (deism) how do you know it is your god (theism)?

Dawkins made this point clearly at the end when he said, "Well, that gives away the game," refering to the fact that Lennox -- who sounds very sophisticated most of the time -- jumped from deism to outright theism without any logical progression in his closing remarks.

As an atheist, I rarely worry about deism. If you want to invoke god as the prime mover, go for it. I don't feel the need to fill that particular void of knowledge with God, but I can understand why some do. But theism is a whole different game -- not only do you believe in God, but you know its CHARACTER!

So, to make this thread useful, I present the following question: Starting with the assumption there is a God, show that this God is in fact your God.

And if you take it on faith, why? Why believe in something with no evidence? Why is that a virtue? In all other fields, faith is bad. In the biggest matter of all - who we are and why we are here - faith is all of a sudden a virtue?

edit: the debate audio. http://richarddawkins.net/article,1707,Debate-between-Richard-Dawkins-and-John-Lennox,Fixed-Point-Foundation-Richard-Dawkins-John-Lennox
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Reply 1 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 01:37:17 AM)
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Last year I wrote a proof for Gods existance on a napkin but my mom threw it out when she was cleaning my room so were shit out of luck.
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Reply 2 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 04:44:08 AM)
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You godless sodomite, get the fuck off this planet. This planet is reserved for God-fearing people!!


Loved the God Delusion actually, and it lead me to seek out other atheistic books like Hitchens' "God is Not Great", and Sam Harris' "a letter to a christian nation" and "The end of faith"

Sam Harris is great at public speeches and debates, i reccomend youtubing him to anyone interested.


As for your question, one can't simply start assuming there is a God, then seek out to prove it. Either you believe, or you don't.
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Reply 3 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 05:40:51 AM)
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I've always found it curious how militant atheists like Dawkins will pound others for having faith in God but will always vindicate their own faith in their own dogma.

Simply stated, what scientific theory conclusively shows there is not a God? And if there is not a theory which does, how can one be sure there is not a God? By having faith?
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Reply 4 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 06:57:25 AM)
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Quoted from vissario:
Simply stated, what scientific theory conclusively shows there is not a God? And if there is not a theory which does, how can one be sure there is not a God? By having faith?


Scientifically, doesn't one generally assume the negative position and require proof to support the positive one? (we won't say that penicillin kills bacteria until we can positively prove it?)

IIRC, in The God Delusion, Dawkins doesn't offer proof of the non-existence of a god, he simply breaks down all the other arguments offered by deists and points out the flaws in their logic, then makes points that since there is no positive proof of a deity, there only real effect is the side effects of religion/faith which he argues are generally negative.
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Reply 5 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 07:48:07 AM)
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I am jealous.

Not all aspects of religion/deism are bad.
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Reply 6 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 08:07:36 AM)
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Quoted from Jesus:
Scientifically, doesn't one generally assume the negative position and require proof to support the positive one?


Scientifically, one generally can't make an assertion without first providing the proof for it.

You wouldn't make the claim "penicillin kills bacteria" without first showing an example where penicillin actually kills bacteria. Therefore, without any real proof, atheists using "scientific arguments" against the existence of God (or gods, for that matter) aren't any more 'scientific' than Christian fundamentalists or Muslim jihadists. Whether they wrap themselves in the cloak or lab coat, they are all arrogant individuals with a zealous fervor matching that of John Edwards (Sinners in the hands of an angry God) or Carl Sagan.

Quoted from Jesus:
IIRC, in The God Delusion, Dawkins doesn't offer proof of the non-existence of a god, he simply breaks down all the other arguments offered by deists and points out the flaws in their logic, then makes points that since there is no positive proof of a deity, there only real effect is the side effects of religion/faith which he argues are generally negative.


Any dogma can and will be used by aggressive individuals or groups for their own self-benefit. Saying that religion is prone to abuse is correct, but so are most things which involve human beings being lead by other human beings.

Quoted from Zippo:
Not all aspects of religion/deism are bad.


Nothing is "bad".

There are, however, things which people perceive as either being negative or positive in light of what they want. Dawkins wants a world where secular "reason" and "logic" rule how people think as well as act. So, therefore, religion is detrimental towards this end and he opposes it because of that.

Personally, I think most forms of organized human activities from nationalism to religion to golf clubs are for weak simpletons who need social and moral guidance from stronger-willed human beings.
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Reply 7 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 08:59:22 AM)
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Quoted from vissario:
I've always found it curious how militant atheists like Dawkins will pound others for having faith in God but will always vindicate their own faith in their own dogma.

Simply stated, what scientific theory conclusively shows there is not a God? And if there is not a theory which does, how can one be sure there is not a God? By having faith?


What? I'm sorry. I don't speak retard.

What scientific theory proves there is not a pink unicorn sitting on clouds? What theory proves there is not a teapot circling the sun?

It's as simple as this: there is no evidence for God, so I don't believe in God. Sure, I can't disprove God, but I can't disprove any number of other deities or theories. Care to prove Poseidon isn't sitting in the Aegean right now?

So, let's get past this stupid arguement that atheists have to prove there is no God, shall we?
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Reply 8 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 09:23:29 AM)
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Quoted from Cupcake 4.0:
Quoted from vissario:
I've always found it curious how militant atheists like Dawkins will pound others for having faith in God but will always vindicate their own faith in their own dogma.

Simply stated, what scientific theory conclusively shows there is not a God? And if there is not a theory which does, how can one be sure there is not a God? By having faith?


What? I'm sorry. I don't speak retard.

What scientific theory proves there is not a pink unicorn sitting on clouds? What theory proves there is not a teapot circling the sun?

It's as simple as this: there is no evidence for God, so I don't believe in God. Sure, I can't disprove God, but I can't disprove any number of other deities or theories. Care to prove Poseidon isn't sitting in the Aegean right now?

So, let's get past this stupid arguement that atheists have to prove there is no God, shall we?


So, basically, you concede that you have as much proof saying there isn't a "God" as Christian fundies do to say there is a "God"? Is it really so hard to say "I don't know and can't be sure either way"?

Of course it is, because you are an arrogant, ignorant, and vindictive extremist just like those "lunatics" people very much like yourself love to bash in the Middle East or the Bible Belt.

Have a nice day i'm a serial-killer :)

PS: I liked your other title better, you know, this one: I met Richard Dawkins and had the privilege of sucking his cock. -k to whoever changed it in less than a hour.
This reply was last edited on 10-05-07 09:42:36 AM by atlas sighed (at me).
Ballsack 5.0

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Reply 9 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 09:41:43 AM)
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Quoted from vissario:
Quoted from Cupcake 4.0:
Quoted from vissario:
I've always found it curious how militant atheists like Dawkins will pound others for having faith in God but will always vindicate their own faith in their own dogma.

Simply stated, what scientific theory conclusively shows there is not a God? And if there is not a theory which does, how can one be sure there is not a God? By having faith?


What? I'm sorry. I don't speak retard.

What scientific theory proves there is not a pink unicorn sitting on clouds? What theory proves there is not a teapot circling the sun?

It's as simple as this: there is no evidence for God, so I don't believe in God. Sure, I can't disprove God, but I can't disprove any number of other deities or theories. Care to prove Poseidon isn't sitting in the Aegean right now?

So, let's get past this stupid arguement that atheists have to prove there is no God, shall we?


So, basically, you concede that you have as much proof saying there isn't a "God" as Christian fundies do to say there is a "God"? Is it really so hard so say "I don't know and can't be sure either way"?

Of course it is, because you are an arrogant, ignorant, and vindictive extremist just like those "lunatics" people very much like yourself love to bash in the Middle East or the Bible Belt.

Have a nice day i'm a serial-killer :)

PS: I liked your other title better, you know, this one: I met Richard Dawkins and had the privilege of sucking his cock. -k to whoever changed it in less than a hour.


I see. So your position on Zeus and the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Wotan and Thor is that you just don't know.

Got it.
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Reply 10 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 09:45:35 AM)
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Quoted from Cupcake 4.0:
Quoted from vissario:
Quoted from Cupcake 4.0:
Quoted from vissario:
I've always found it curious how militant atheists like Dawkins will pound others for having faith in God but will always vindicate their own faith in their own dogma.

Simply stated, what scientific theory conclusively shows there is not a God? And if there is not a theory which does, how can one be sure there is not a God? By having faith?


What? I'm sorry. I don't speak retard.

What scientific theory proves there is not a pink unicorn sitting on clouds? What theory proves there is not a teapot circling the sun?

It's as simple as this: there is no evidence for God, so I don't believe in God. Sure, I can't disprove God, but I can't disprove any number of other deities or theories. Care to prove Poseidon isn't sitting in the Aegean right now?

So, let's get past this stupid arguement that atheists have to prove there is no God, shall we?


So, basically, you concede that you have as much proof saying there isn't a "God" as Christian fundies do to say there is a "God"? Is it really so hard so say "I don't know and can't be sure either way"?

Of course it is, because you are an arrogant, ignorant, and vindictive extremist just like those "lunatics" people very much like yourself love to bash in the Middle East or the Bible Belt.

Have a nice day i'm a serial-killer :)

PS: I liked your other title better, you know, this one: I met Richard Dawkins and had the privilege of sucking his cock. -k to whoever changed it in less than a hour.


I see. So your position on Zeus and the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Wotan and Thor is that you just don't know.

Got it.


You have an amazing ability similar to most Christian fundamentalists, BB; the systematic and deliberate ability to filter what information comes into your mind so that no opposing belief ever faults your iron-clad fantasy of the world.
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Reply 11 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 09:48:17 AM)
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Quoted from Zippo:
I am jealous.

Not all aspects of religion/deism are bad.

Oh, agreed. I wasn't trying to say that.

Please don't hate me, Zippo.

Quote:
You have an amazing ability similar to most Christian fundamentalists, BB; the systematic and deliberate ability to filter what information comes into your mind so that no opposing belief ever faults your iron-clad fantasy of the world.

Listen, I know I can't disprove God. God isn't disproven. It will never be disproven. All I can say is that there is not a shred of evidence for its existence, therefore I don't believe in it.
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Reply 12 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 09:50:45 AM)
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Quote:
Listen, I know I can't disprove God. God isn't disproven. It will never be disproven. All I can say is that there is not a shred of evidence for its existence, therefore I don't believe in it.


You claim you don't know it for certain, yet you know it for certain?

Doublethink at its finest, folks!
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Reply 13 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 09:59:00 AM)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Greatest religion ever.
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Reply 14 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 10:15:23 AM)
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Quote:
What scientific theory proves there is not a pink unicorn sitting on clouds? What theory proves there is not a teapot circling the sun?


Actually science has shown substantial evidence for why those things are about as highly unlikely and irrational as anything can possibly be.

Much like it shows that a literal interpretation of, for example, the events in the bible is extremely unlikely to be true.

The reason i say unlikely is that humans can never be completely sure about anything, ever, but this is about as close as we get.
So...we really don't need to have 100% indisputable evidence to claim that someones beliefs are irrational.
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Reply 15 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 01:56:22 PM)
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Quoted from anaemic_royalty:
Quote:
What scientific theory proves there is not a pink unicorn sitting on clouds? What theory proves there is not a teapot circling the sun?


Actually science has shown substantial evidence for why those things are about as highly unlikely and irrational as anything can possibly be.

Much like it shows that a literal interpretation of, for example, the events in the bible is extremely unlikely to be true.

The reason i say unlikely is that humans can never be completely sure about anything, ever, but this is about as close as we get.
So...we really don't need to have 100% indisputable evidence to claim that someones beliefs are irrational.


Now I feel bad for making your title "Swedish Cunt"
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Reply 16 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 07:33:45 PM)
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(( Really, wouldn't we get a discussion with less inflammatory rhetoric if we moved this to SD? ))
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Reply 17 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-05-07 10:54:22 PM)
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Quoted from vissario:
You have an amazing ability similar to most Christian fundamentalists, BB; the systematic and deliberate ability to filter what information comes into your mind so that no opposing belief ever faults your iron-clad fantasy of the world.


Exactly. BB, you read his response, which is one of the best I've seen in a long time. He never said there wasn't one in that. You did however, only hear what you wanted to hear, which was the taken out of context, "I don't know and I can't be sure either way."

And yes, thank you Vissario, for pointing out that indeed, most Christians (or otherwise 'godly' people) are that way. BB, if you're so engrossed in your own belief (which, in your case, lack their of) you will not let any instance of knowledge dare counter yours. Because, YOUR god-less belief is perfect, and nothing can change that. While I'm absolutely for standing up for what you believe in, you are a worthless being if you cannot argue intelligently. Your lack of being able to even sound like you acknowledged his rebuttal is best summarized by the typical valley girl "nuh uh!!!".

Oh, indeed BB, you are the better man.
Quote:
Listen, I know I can't disprove God. God isn't disproven. It will never be disproven. All I can say is that there is not a shred of evidence for its existence, therefore I don't believe in it.

Riiight. So, back to what Vissario was saying, don't you in that belief, REST on a sort of faith?
Oh, snap! Einstein said that once! When he wrote the letter to the sixth grader who asked if scientists pray, he said how science can give someone a type of religious feeling, and that because majority of science has faults, and anomalies, and isn't perfect, they have to rest on a sort of faith.

So, how do you not believe in a higher being, where as you've said there is no evidence to disprove whether one exists, without resting on the faith that you are right?
sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good ;D
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Reply 18 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-06-07 01:27:32 AM)
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Edit: No.

Stay away from me vissario, away!
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This reply was last edited on 10-06-07 01:39:18 AM by drahnier.
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Reply 19 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-06-07 09:46:26 AM)
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I just figure "live and let live".
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Reply 20 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-06-07 09:58:58 AM)
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Quote:
Riiight. So, back to what Vissario was saying, don't you in that belief, REST on a sort of faith?

Not actively believing in a particular thing for which there is no rational evidence whatsoever is a leap of faith now?
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Reply 21 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-06-07 10:21:40 AM)
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There's a difference between "Eh, whatever, don't know don't care," and "I ADHERENTLY SUPPORT MY ABILITY TO BELIEVE AND MY BELIEF THAT THERE IS NO SUPREME POWER AND PREACH IT WHOLE-HEARTEDLY."

So yes, atheism can come across as a faith at times. Especially when people preach it.
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Reply 22 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-06-07 06:42:26 PM)
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Quoted from IF0:
There's a difference between "Eh, whatever, don't know don't care," and "I ADHERENTLY SUPPORT MY ABILITY TO BELIEVE AND MY BELIEF THAT THERE IS NO SUPREME POWER AND PREACH IT WHOLE-HEARTEDLY."

So yes, atheism can come across as a faith at times. Especially when people preach it.


Remember my post on "New Atheism"? Yeah, sounds like that. It's hypocrisy, really.

EDIT: 1337 Post!
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Reply 23 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-06-07 09:34:45 PM)
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Not to be biased or anything, but I'd take the word of God and works inspired by the word of God over that of a mere man. SO I guess my faith has greater faith than the faith of BB. Because using his logic, that's how it is.
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Reply 24 of 59 (Originally posted on: 10-07-07 02:44:52 PM)
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Quote:
(( Really, wouldn't we get a discussion with less inflammatory rhetoric if we moved this to SD? ))


"Inflammatory rhetoric" is what makes people post.

Quoted from drahnier:
The reason i say unlikely is that humans can never be completely sure about anything, ever, but this is about as close as we get.


Unlikely /=/ Untrue.

I don't claim that there is a God floating in the sky pulling my strings like a puppet-master, but I also don't claim there isn't one because I can't.

Quoted from drahnier:

So...we really don't need to have 100% indisputable evidence to claim that someones beliefs are irrational.


The claim that you can be relatively "sure" there isn't a god or God is also irrational for the above reasons; you simply don't know enough about the Universe. Next.
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