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Would you support a eugenics program aimed at eliminating mentally, physically, or sociologically defective people from society?
This poll has expired.
Yes, without reservations 3 votes, 13.043%
Yes, with some reservations 3 votes, 13.043%
No, because it is not practical, but I like the general idea 3 votes, 13.043%
No, because it is morally wrong 14 votes, 60.87%
What is this "Eugenics", a new latte? (I have no opinion because I am either stupid or uninformed ) 0 votes, 0%
Totals: 23 votes, 103.058%
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(Originally posted on: 09-17-07 08:37:32 AM)
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Quoted from Mr. E. on the other thread:
This poll is flawed. There is various degrees of mental illness and so it cant be yes or no.



In due course with the obvious flaw with Adam's query on whether or not he was inferior, I made a better one (not on his apparent retardation): Would you support a eugenics program aimed at eliminating the mentally, physically, and sociologically handicapped who fail to contribute more than they draw from society?

To be specific, let me describe the three handicaps I mentioned above:

    Mental: Some person who's mental condition doesn't enable them to either think or act in a socially productive manner. (I.E. a suffer of, say, ADD who has the attention span of a few minutes)

    Physical: Some person who's physical condition prevents them from performing some trade or socially productive activity. (I.E. someone who's spinal cord was severed and they can no longer perform any bodily functions without the aid of an outside force)

    Sociological: Some person who exhibits an incapacity to exist within the normal confines of a society's written or unwritten rules. (I.E. a criminal who routinely steals, vandalizes, destroys, or has no respect for property or other human beings within said society.)


As for me, I would support a eugenics programs dealing with all three without any significant reservation. In today's world, defects should be weeded out of a society to prevent future suffering. Criminals should be put to death if they fail to realize their folly and, most importantly, correct it. Autistic children who can't do anything useful or even exist on their own should be put to death so they don't drain our coffers or spread their faulty genes. And the physically handicapped who can't find a niche in our world should be put to death so they don't make others suffer for them or spread their own possibly defective genes.

What do you think?
This reply was last edited on 09-17-07 08:43:55 AM by atlas sighed (at me).
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Reply 1 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 09:23:04 AM)
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Not all handicaps are genetic in nature. I would never support this.
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Reply 2 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 09:28:20 AM)
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No. Once we decide to start killing people for having ADD or some sort of social disorder, where do we decide to stop? Soon we're trying to prove ourselves worthy of life - which is a right not a privilege.
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Reply 3 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 09:31:33 AM)
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No, This is wrong on so many levels.

If you're not meant to be alive, then God will strike you down in some way or another.
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Reply 4 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 09:42:18 AM)
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Voted "Yes with some reservations". I'll sound like an ass for this, but honestly I'd rather not have to deal with the burden they place on their family & on society. I've seen my share of mental retardation, and the strains it places on their caretakers. It sucks.

But, I wouldn't kill someone because they had ADD or something that some psychiatrist invented (in regards to the mental aspect). I was "diagnosed" with ADD, and yet I'm working to become a productive member of society... Most mental illnesses are bunk, really.

As to the physical handicap: there are some people who, despite debilitating handicaps, have contributed much to society (Steven Hawkings).

People who don't obey the basic laws of society (don't kill, steal, rape, etc.), and are caught doing what they do more than once (in the case of stealing; rape & murder should be capitol offenses), have shown a lack of restraint (or are in dire circumstances a la poverty & stealing bread, which makes things complicated).

So yeah, I don't agree with Viss's reasoning, but I do with his overall message, to some degree. I just think the money could be spent elsewhere.

Confusing post but I got 4 hours of sleep after a shitload of physics... Catch me on this later.

EDIT:
Quoted from candicecan:
No, This is wrong on so many levels.

If you're not meant to be alive, then God will strike you down in some way or another.


Oh shit, the "God deems it so!" argument. Get a better crutch.
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Reply 5 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 09:55:30 AM)
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I wouldn't want to kill my grandpa just because he was too shaky to perform a job or had to use a wheelchair, or my grandma just because she got alzheimer's.

Also, were this to happen, the people who advocate the act would find loopholes for themselves and close relations to avoid any sort of penalty. Additionally, I'm sure someone could just start diagnosing one in four people to have ADD - who is going to argue? It seems to me that the phenomenon of ADD has appeared almost twenty fold of what it was ten years ago. That's another topic, though (and quite a conspiracy theory as well).

So, no.
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Reply 6 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 09:58:22 AM)
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Quoted from Snook:
I'll sound like an ass for this, but honestly I'd rather not have to deal with the burden they place on their family & on society. I've seen my share of mental retardation, and the strains it places on their caretakers. It sucks.

Yes, but would they prefer the person under their care to be dead?

Mental illnesses are NOT bunk if they are diagnosed and treated correctly. There is a physiological basis to them and are not because little Johnny does poorly on his homework because he plays video games all day therefore he must have ADD.

Maybe if people who committed crimes were rehabilitated, you would have less repeat offenders.
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Reply 7 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 09:59:18 AM)
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Quoted from Dimi:
No. Once we decide to start killing people for having ADD or some sort of social disorder, where do we decide to stop? Soon we're trying to prove ourselves worthy of life - which is a right not a privilege.


What magical peice of paper said that life is a "right"? The U.N. Charter?

If people are blatently inferior to an extreme degree, why should we keep them alive? They decrease the value of our society and its productivity as well as forcing people to suffer themselves simply for the sake of someone who was born inferior.

If a habitual criminal is put in jail for 10 years after his "third strike", who foots the bill? Society does.

If a baby is born with a genetic defect which requires massive amounts of medical care simply to keep alive, who foots the bill? The parents and society does.

If a man who loses all his physical capacities in a car wreck goes on life support, who gains anything from that situation? I'll tell you who; bleeding hearts like you, not general society.

Really, the most selfish people in this thread are the ones who think they are invaluable and have some special 'right' to live in society even if they are wasting resources, not people like me to who want to see their own personal resources used to benefit themselves and the world they live in.
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Reply 8 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 10:04:08 AM)
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So why not kill all the elderly who are retired and living off Social Security since are a drain on society and are not productive!

And while we're at it, let's kill all poor people who are on welfare and are too stupid to use birth control and are making poor babies because they are also a drain on society!
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Reply 9 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 10:07:52 AM)
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Quoted from Snook:
Voted "Yes with some reservations". I'll sound like an ass for this, but honestly I'd rather not have to deal with the burden they place on their family & on society. I've seen my share of mental retardation, and the strains it places on their caretakers. It sucks.

But, I wouldn't kill someone because they had ADD or something that some psychiatrist invented (in regards to the mental aspect). I was "diagnosed" with ADD, and yet I'm working to become a productive member of society... Most mental illnesses are bunk, really.

As to the physical handicap: there are some people who, despite debilitating handicaps, have contributed much to society (Steven Hawkings).

People who don't obey the basic laws of society (don't kill, steal, rape, etc.), and are caught doing what they do more than once (in the case of stealing; rape & murder should be capitol offenses), have shown a lack of restraint (or are in dire circumstances a la poverty & stealing bread, which makes things complicated).

So yeah, I don't agree with Viss's reasoning, but I do with his overall message, to some degree. I just think the money could be spent elsewhere.

Confusing post but I got 4 hours of sleep after a shitload of physics... Catch me on this later.

EDIT:
Quoted from candicecan:
No, This is wrong on so many levels.

If you're not meant to be alive, then God will strike you down in some way or another.


Oh shit, the "God deems it so!" argument. Get a better crutch.


I guess you did not catch my sarcasm, This isn't in serious discussion so I was cracking a joke.
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Reply 10 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 10:10:13 AM)
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Quoted from Zippo:
So why not kill all the elderly who are retired and living off Social Security since are a drain on society and are not productive!


Really, why not? If they don't do anything except make the younger generations less wealthy and less productive, why should they be around? So you can feel nice?

Quoted from Zippo:
And while we're at it, let's kill all poor people who are on welfare and are too stupid to use birth control and are making poor babies because they are also a drain on society


Poverty without welfare should be enough to kill poor people who don't want to work. Parents should know when they can afford to have babies and should suffer the consequences (starvation) when they make too many. Sorry to be "mean", but people should live and die based on their intelligence as human beings, not because the government makes me give them hand-outs.
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Reply 11 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 10:10:14 AM)
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Quoted from Zippo:
Quoted from Snook:
I'll sound like an ass for this, but honestly I'd rather not have to deal with the burden they place on their family & on society. I've seen my share of mental retardation, and the strains it places on their caretakers. It sucks.

Yes, but would they prefer the person under their care to be dead?

Mental illnesses are NOT bunk if they are diagnosed and treated correctly. There is a physiological basis to them and are not because little Johnny does poorly on his homework because he plays video games all day therefore he must have ADD.

Maybe if people who committed crimes were rehabilitated, you would have less repeat offenders.


Firstly: If you can access this: Ch. 1.4 - Tracy Latimer. OK, that doesn't work... Use this.

Secondly: Everyone I know in the pharmaceutical industry has sworn to me that quite a few of the mental illnesses are complete tripe. There are real ones, but most are an excuse to put kids on meds & get more money.

Thirdly: I used to have neighbours who had a kid with heart problems & downs syndrome. He took up all of the families time, money, and efforts. He contributed... what? Emotional comfort? Apart from him, they had two other children, an older brother & sister. The brother looked for attention elsewhere, turned to drugs & dealing, got 2 girls pregnant (at the same time!) and ran out on both. I dunno where he is now, probably in jail... The sister had to skip school 2 days out of 3 to look after the sickly brother while the mother & father tried to earn enough money to support the huge medical bills. She dropped out & is now pregnant at 16.

Fuck that. I wouldn't want shit like that to happen with my family.

Quoted from candicecan:
I guess you did not catch my sarcasm, This isn't in serious discussion so I was cracking a joke.


Sorry, got a little carried away...
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Reply 12 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 10:21:24 AM)
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Quoted from zippo:
Maybe if people who committed crimes were rehabilitated, you would have less repeat offenders.


And what, force me to "rehabilitate" them by spending money, time, and resources that could otherwise be benefit general society? If people really wanted to benefit mutually with society, they would do so without qualm or need for "education".

If a man who steals stole once, he will likely do it again when he gets out. He is not an unreplaceable asset to humanity and is actually a burden upon it as he threatens the basic principles governing the economy. Clearly stated, his worth is nothing; his value is negative.
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Reply 13 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 10:26:32 AM)
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Quoted from vissario:
Quoted from zippo:
Maybe if people who committed crimes were rehabilitated, you would have less repeat offenders.


And what, force me to "rehabilitate" them by spending money, time, and resources that could otherwise be benefit general society? If people really wanted to benefit mutually with society, they would do so without qualm or need for "education".

If a man who steals stole once, he will likely do it again when he gets out. He is not an unreplaceable asset to humanity and is actually a burden upon it as he threatens the basic principles governing the economy. Clearly stated, his worth is nothing; his value is negative.


In the case of stealing it can be remedied. But first the whole rehab process needs to be rebuilt. If I recall correctly (IF0, correct me here?) there was a time when prisoners worked, and made products such as license plates & such, which would pay for their incarceration. Revert to this system. You give prisoners skills, and they don't depend on society to keep them alive.
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Reply 14 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 10:41:32 AM)
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i'll mail free brown shirts to anyone who votes 'yes'!
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Reply 15 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 10:56:36 AM)
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Many inside the prison system still do work, but is working a license plate machine really a 'skill' that you could put on your resume? Shit, just having gone to jail is a pretty big mark on your "record," and disallows you from many jobs.

I'm not willing to take the responsibility for taking other peoples' lives, but I do feel that there are many people whose quality of life is significantly reduced, not to mention that of those around them. As such, I would rather be killed if I were in their position, but I have little authority in the killing of other people because I think it's best. It would be similar to me telling someone that they have to live, even if they wanted to die (familiar?).
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Reply 16 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 10:57:17 AM)
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Quote:
What magical peice of paper said that life is a "right"? The U.N. Charter?

I knew this was coming.

How about the fact that we're all born with life - and no one one person or one group has authority to give or take it. When you are born, you are granted with the right to life. Proof of that is the fact that you're alive when you're born. You're not born at the mercy of some government or international life-approval society. You just are born, you just have life. If you don't have the right to live, you might as well not be alive.
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Reply 17 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 11:01:50 AM)
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People have abortions because the condom broke or they were stupid. I don't see much problem with someone having an abortion (I only support first trimester abortions, FYI) if a fetus is deemed to having an obviously identifiable genetic disorder (Trisomy 21, for example). I only support this on first trimester unborn... things. But I don't necessarily see a problem with giving parents the choice.

Also, genetic counseling already exists. For example, parents that both carry a recessive sickle-cell trait may opt to not have children biologically to avoid passing on these genes and possibly having a child afflicted with sickle cell anemia. Is there such a huge line between them? Either way, you're avoiding bringing a child into a world that will face hardships, both for itself and for the parents, societies, schools, etc.

For the record, I would not support anything resembling eugenics/euthanasia on already living things.

Though one problem I see with it.. for example, people born deaf have their own culture. They are against eliminating deafness via surgery or implants, because they say it is ruining their culture. Just a thought. Anyhow, my 2 cents.

p.s. voted no because it is impractical, but not because I disagree with the sentiment (economically and socially).

p.p.s.
Quote:
[13:06] rchif0: what about furthering it.. if you could genetically engineer that trait away, is that wrong?
[13:06] sukkit7: no
[13:06] sukkit7: I don't think so
[13:07] rchif0: that's basically my point.
[13:07] rchif0: whatever way to get rid of a trait like that pre-birth

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This reply was last edited on 09-17-07 11:09:19 AM by IF0.
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Reply 18 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 11:03:07 AM)
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Quoted from Dimi:
Quote:
What magical peice of paper said that life is a "right"? The U.N. Charter?

I knew this was coming.

How about the fact that we're all born with life - and no one one person or one group has authority to give or take it. When you are born, you are granted with the right to life. Proof of that is the fact that you're alive when you're born. You're not born at the mercy of some government or international life-approval society. You just are born, you just have life. If you don't have the right to live, you might as well not be alive.

So bird eggs that are eaten pre-birth don't have the right to life because they weren't "born," and fish that are eaten by a bird have had their rights violated because they were born? big grin
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Reply 19 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 11:07:25 AM)
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Quote:
Voted "Yes with some reservations". I'll sound like an ass for this, but honestly I'd rather not have to deal with the burden they place on their family & on society. I've seen my share of mental retardation, and the strains it places on their caretakers

Their families aren't forced to take care of them, they do it because they choose to.

Do you think they want you to save them by killing their family member?

As for the strain it places on society, i assume you also want to kill the elderly?
Maybe i should come and shoot your grandma before she becomes a burden.
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Reply 20 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 11:19:17 AM)
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Quoted from Snook:
Secondly: Everyone I know in the pharmaceutical industry has sworn to me that quite a few of the mental illnesses are complete tripe. There are real ones, but most are an excuse to put kids on meds & get more money.

I've never heard that from an industry person but I'm not saying that it isn't true. From the health care perspective, of course not all is known about brain function and a lot of it depends on guesses so it is possible that some disease states aren't "true" diseases; however, the purpose of health care is to improve quality of life for the patient and treating symptoms (via neurotransmitter direct/indirect blockers/agonists) is one way to do that.

As for the mentally disabled, I'm going to stop arguing that point because it would greatly upset me.

Quoted from vissario:
rehabilitation is costly, etc.

It is less costly than the death penalty.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/Fact_Sheets/The_Death_Penalty_Costs_More/page.do?id=1101084&n1=3&n2=28&n3=99
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Reply 21 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 11:24:24 AM)
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I think the controversy arises when, all the sudden, something is deemed a symptom that needs to be cured. Things that were once normal or just things to deal with suddenly become disorders that require medication. There's a quote somewhere.. "The best way to get rich is to come up with a disease after you found a cure for it." Or something like that.
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Reply 22 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 11:25:12 AM)
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Quoted from IF0:
Quoted from Dimi:
Quote:
What magical peice of paper said that life is a "right"? The U.N. Charter?

I knew this was coming.

How about the fact that we're all born with life - and no one one person or one group has authority to give or take it. When you are born, you are granted with the right to life. Proof of that is the fact that you're alive when you're born. You're not born at the mercy of some government or international life-approval society. You just are born, you just have life. If you don't have the right to live, you might as well not be alive.

So bird eggs that are eaten pre-birth don't have the right to life because they weren't "born," and fish that are eaten by a bird have had their rights violated because they were born? big grin

Who is talking about birds or fish?
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Reply 23 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 11:30:43 AM)
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Ah Eugenics! Hitler supported it, so of course vissario does too. (I don't think Godwin was prepared for vissario?!)

Anyway I voted no because I'm actually not a total asshole.

Sometimes I think we'd all be better off (genetically and in terms of global overpopulation) if miracles of science weren't keeping alive the people who would otherwise be dead from their various maladies (people who are allergic to trees/the sun/etc, people who need machines to keep their hearts pumping, etc), but at the same time I think that since we have this technology we might as well use it, because if my heart stopped and I had a choice of a pacemaker or death I would definitely be choosing the pacemaker. So... some conflicting thoughts there. But in summary I don't support killing people!

PS. It's DIFFERENTLY ABLED, you guys, like omg.
Science Brad
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Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end.

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Reply 24 of 100 (Originally posted on: 09-17-07 11:41:46 AM)
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I will reply later as I am about to run off to class, but will nip this in the bud:

Quote:
global overpopulation

Is a myth. We have more than enough food to feed everyone fine, in fact the overweight outnumber the malnourished now. There is also more than enough room for people to live fine. It is problems of distribution of food and shelter that lead to a lot of problems, but overpopulation is definitely not the reason.
"We've arranged a civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces." -Carl Sagan
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