Hypocrisy, or just black people being black?



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atlas sighed (at me)
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On Saturday, June 23rd, black people everywhere are supposedly going to rise up and protest illegal immigration and Hispanics in general for, you guessed it, T00KIN' ER JOBS!. They hope to send the message that "we certainly will not sit by quietly as illegal aliens fill our jobs, our schools and our hospitals".

Now surely, coming from a demographic group which has prided itself on its "fight" for rights and economic equality over 40 years ago, this just smacks of blatant hypocrisy and double-standards. Wasn't it only 40 years ago that white people were voicing the same complaints that a newly "freed" black population would aggressively pursue "their" jobs? And wasn't it black people who said it wasn't fair to be treated as second-class citizens, or as foreigners in a country they have lived all of their life?

I can agree with their stance on punishing people who violate the law, but what is with this latent hostility and "expel um all!" attitude? Illegal people in this country should be given the chance to exist openly and legally here like any citizen, and practically, only a fool would honestly believe that they won't return once you have deported them. But more interestingly, what does this say about black America? Are they really going to renounce on their own crusade for liberty just so they can pursue another obviously self-serving movement like Affirmative Action and slavery reparations?

What do you think? Are these protesters a bunch of hypocrites the media refuses to expose or do they make a valid point that it isn't right for them to lose their crappy jobs?

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if a bunch of white people protested would there be a thread about it?

Tackle 'em all. Let the referee sort it out later.

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Quoted from vissario:
What do you think? Are these protesters a bunch of hypocrites the media refuses to expose or do they make a valid point that it isn't right for them to lose their crappy jobs?

Maybe they don't base their entire identity on their race like you seem to think they do. They're just normal people, like Mr Excitable said, you wouldn't make a thread about it if white people did this.

atlas sighed (at me)
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Quote:
if a bunch of white people protested would there be a thread about it?

They would be bigoted just the same.

Quote:
Maybe they don't base their entire identity on their race like you seem to think they do.

Maybe, but I find it hard to believe that a group of people will swallow an overweening, self-indulgent form of xeonophobia and bigotry towards a group of people in the same way their ancestors were shunned from white society. Really, I am the only one this irony strikes as too much to swallow? Or does it become acceptable simply because we apparently hate them damn mexicanooos?

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Quoted from vissario:
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if a bunch of white people protested would there be a thread about it?

They would be bigoted just the same.

haha come on man

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Is the "black" element of that demographic group the characteristic you should be focusing on?

Or are the education level, income bracket, percieved social status, and other factors more central to their motives for protest, and it just happens that most of the people in that demographic are black?

I think you take your assumptions in the wrong direction.

Ok, that's good to know...

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Quoted from Menion:
Is the "black" element of that demographic group the characteristic you should be focusing on?

Or are the education level, income bracket, percieved social status, and other factors more central to their motives for protest, and it just happens that most of the people in that demographic are black?

I think you take your assumptions in the wrong direction.

Unless you are going to say that rich Black people weren't systematically identified and separated from white society before the 1960's, you are missing my point.

These protesters are attempting to separate illegal immigrants further from general society in spite of the fact that they may have been here for over 10 years. It is a joke that they would cite them as being a dangerous threats to their lives when white people cited black people as dangerous threats to their own before being fully emancipated. If they are so enamored with equallity and civil rights for all in this country, why do they push so hard to eliminate them? Hypocrisy, people, is still hypocrisy whenever it shows up on the lips of minorities in this country!

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Quoted from vissario:
Quoted from Menion:
Is the "black" element of that demographic group the characteristic you should be focusing on?

Or are the education level, income bracket, percieved social status, and other factors more central to their motives for protest, and it just happens that most of the people in that demographic are black?

I think you take your assumptions in the wrong direction.

Unless you are going to say that rich Black people weren't systematically identified and separated from white society before the 1960's, you are missing my point.

These protesters are attempting to separate illegal immigrants further from general society in spite of the fact that they may have been here for over 10 years. It is a joke that they would cite them as being a dangerous threats to their lives when white people cited black people as dangerous threats to their own before being fully emancipated. If they are so enamored with equallity and civil rights for all in this country, why do they push so hard to eliminate them? Hypocrisy, people, is still hypocrisy whenever it shows up on the lips of minorities in this country!

The only flaw I can point out without hearing a whole lot more of what you have to say on the topic is that the blacks living in this country as slaves were brought here.
The lives that they were given were thrust upon them by someone else. Civil Rights movements are designed, if I may drastically oversimplify, to create equal rights for people that lived in a nation because they had no choice in the matter.
(Please don't skew this statement into an unrealistic debate on whether or not blacks should have fled the country upon emmancipation. It should be clear to most that while possible, that was a very unrealistic option for many.)

Obviously you can see why illegal aliens do not fit that framework. If you want to live in America then you should ask nicely. If you force your way in, however, you should be forced to leave the way you came. If, however, you were forced to come here by other Americans, then you should damn well be given the rights deserved.

Personally, I don't see anything inherently wrong with that view.

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I'd rather have hard-working mexicans in my country then lazy noobs (of any race).

The reason people hire them over other americans is usually cause they work harder (not cheaper). Its pretty sad that a bunch of little guys who don't even speak English are doing a better job than us. Sure an employer would prefer to have legal citizens on his staff, but if every American he employs turns out to be unreliable, what do you expect him to do?

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You will never hear me speak out against the work ethic of immigrants.
After all, that's why they come here in the first place.

It's a very touchy subject, and that's one of the reasons I really support the new bill. I provides a way for many of the immigrants that are here already to stay, and at the same time makes an attempt to put a foot down against further illigal immigration activity.

There are so many untraceable little impacts that the immigrant population has on our economy that there is no realistic way to put together the whole picture. There are a lot of good things and a lot of bad. The problem doesn't lie in the people themselves, it's the principle of how they got here. As an economy, we cannot support an endless stream of newcomers and "free" riders. Our public systems are taxed enough as it is. As such, we need to try and put a stop to it somehow, and sooner rather than later.

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shrink the government, open the borders.

Also, since when was Menion from Tampa? I always throught you were from somewhere in Europe?

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Quote:
The reason people hire them over other americans is usually cause they work harder (not cheaper).

Where do you get this from?

They're desperate enough to work for slave-like salaries and they have no legal employee-rights whatsoever, that's why they're hired.
I mean the illegal ones, of course.

DRAHNIER

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Quote:
Obviously you can see why illegal aliens do not fit that framework.

No, I can't

The civil rights movement was about creating an inclusive society which did not segregate based on race, culture, et cetera. Campaigners on the side which is often propagandized as being "right" held the central mantra that black people should be treated equal to that of white people and the local government shouldn't discriminate against them.

Today, illegal immigrants wants to be a part of this culture. They want to be allowed to stay here because for many of them, they consider themselves "American" who just happened to have been born in another country. Really, if black people want to impress upon me that their civil rights movement was more about philosophic equality and not about personal benefit against other races, they are failing with this. Like Affirmative action and the campaign for slave reparations, this just smacks of "blacks first, everyone else second!".

Quote:
shrink the government, open the borders

I agree with Dimi.

We should liberalize the immigration policies to allow anyone who wants to work or live in this country to work or live in this country.

Further, to solve the problem of illegals magically "using" welfare services by going to hospitals, why don't we simply cut taxes and get rid of programs which fund hospitals? If you can't pay for your treatment, why should you be entitled to one? If you can't feed you 7 kids, maybe one or two should stave before you make me pay for them? If you can't support yourself because you are a lazy bastard, what entitles you to my money?

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Do you not see that just "allowing anyone to live in this country" would destroy our economy?

You can't just cut funding for hospitals and make everyone pay for their own treatment, nobody could afford anything moer than pills. Insurance companies would be forced to support the entire medical industry, which would make them jack their prices. Then nobody could afford insurance and the hospitals would have nothing. With the hospitals taking huge losses, the entire medical field would go downhill.

You didn't even mention public schools.
Or unemployment.

Furthermore, you say that the civil rights movement holds the "central mantra that black people should be treated equal to that of white people and etc..."

Wrong. The central mantra was that Black Americans should be entitled all the rights in the American Constitution with no descrimination. Illegals are not Americans. It's a terrible thing to say, but they don't count. At some point someone has to realize the practical limitations of a nation to support its people.

I'm not saying the US can't afford the immigrants that it has or that it can't support a few million more. I'm saying that it can't afford to continue letting people without limits, which means we have to stop somehwere.
Stop now and get everyone in line so that we don't have a bigger mess to clean up later.

EDIT:
Look, I understand sorta where you are coming from. The idea that everyone is perfectly equal and should be given egalitarian opportunities is noble. Grand as it may be, it's not possible. The USA is a huge country with incredibly high standards of living compared to nearly everywhere in the world. Is that wonderful? Yea. Should eveyone be given a chance to live here? Yea.

Should we just let the whole world dogpile the nation and try to grab and take what they can? No. That would ultimately destroy what it is that they sought to begin with. It's not going to happen tomorow, or next week, or next year. But it will happen.

My opinions?
Get rid of health insurance and raise taxes. Yes, raise them. Institute a nation-wide universal health care program. If you need medical help and you are a citizen, you get it regardless of cost.

Regulate immigration. Heavily.

Cut back the military. Pull out of Europe and the industrialized nations of the world, they don't need babysitters. Keep home defenses tight, put the money you save from expenses abroad into military research to keep us on the forefront of technology.

Extend public education up through jr. college

Institute a bracketed flat tax. No loopholes, no exemptions, no credits, no deductions, no crap. Pay the taxes.

If we did all that then we could support all the illegals in the US right now AND take on another twelve million or so.

This reply was last edited on 06-22-07 10:24:51 PM by Menion.

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Quote:
You can't just cut funding for hospitals and make everyone pay for their own treatment, nobody could afford anything moer than pills. Insurance companies would be forced to support the entire medical industry, which would make them jack their prices. Then nobody could afford insurance and the hospitals would have nothing. With the hospitals taking huge losses, the entire medical field would go downhill.

Can't pay for healthcare? Natural selection hates.

Quote:
You didn't even mention public schools.
Or unemployment.

Public education is a joke and should be privatized. The current model inspires inefficiency and attempts to push people into college or higher jobs who don't want to succeed.

Unemployment? If natives can't keep crappy jobs involving scrubbing toilet scum, too bad. Go to college, take a loan, and get a real job which isn't a joke. Seriously, who the fuck would want to take a job like that? OH, i know ! Immigrants!

Quote:
I'm saying that it can't afford them ALL, which means we have to stop somehwere.

You're right. This little exploration into socialism which was started in the 1930's has led to a state which is increasingly spending more and more money on public services. Cut government, cut immigration standards, and let population patterns evolve naturally to suit the economy. When there are no more jobs here that natives refuse to do and no promise of a free lunch from the government, there will not be further immigration on this scale.

Quote:
The central mantra was that Black Americans should be entitled all the rights in the American Constitution with no descrimination. Illegals are not Americans. It's a terrible thing to say, but they don't count. At some point someone has to realize the practical limitations of a nation to support its people.

This nation has no limitations like the ones you are suggesting. The illegals are already here, they are already participating in our economy, and they have already become a very important force in helping to drive it. Without their cheap labor, inflation would rise on basic commodities you buy a Wal-Mart or McDonalds. With rising inflation, you ultimately have less money for durable goods (cars, houses) and certain non-durable goods (Xbox360s, imported wine). In the end, if America simply let these people stay and continue playing their part, we would be better off with them being active in the politics of this country and not existing a sort of slave class.

And trust me, I wouldn't push for this without also pushing to abolish the BS proposal of a 7.55$ minimum wage. That is another joke.

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Surely you jest.

atlas sighed (at me)
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You tacked quite a bit on which I didn't see when I posted.

I'll reply to them here for the sake of the debate.

Quote:
The USA is a huge country with incredibly high standards of living compared to nearly everywhere in the world. Is that wonderful? Yea. Should eveyone be given a chance to live here? Yea.

Then let the standard of living fall. Seriously, what is the big deal with western nations keeping up this mantel? If standards must fall to better integrate this economy and produce the cheapest, best product, why not? If you live in a palatial mansion and one of your workers lives in a dirt shack, why not? People should be allowed to choose what type of life they without the government trying to keep everyone as close as possible. Hey, if you want to scrub toilets the rest of your life, so be it. If you want to be a corporate executive who gets to keep the money he earns, so be it. In the end, its all about the right to fairness.

Quote:
But it will happen.

Good use of logical argument. It will happen because I say it will happen.

Quote:
Look, I understand sorta where you are coming from. The idea that everyone is perfectly equal and should be given egalitarian opportunities is noble. Grand as it may be, it's not possible.

It's not possible because people like you make it impossible. You claim to be all about making society equal, but you attempt to siphon off certain groups of people from joining the country. You claim to want to make the economics of this country egalitarian, but you do so by robbing from the rich just to redistribute amongst the poor. You claim to make society better, but you just want to make the government's tax policies better for its pet programs.

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Good use of logical argument. It will happen because I say it will happen.

No, that was the conclusion for which the premises were already given.
If we allow immigrants to enter the country unchequed, they will continue to tax public systems like education and healthcare. As those systems are taxed, financial pressure is applied to the middle classes in the USA. As the pressure continues to build, the middle class will ultimately collapse.
Conclusion: It will happen. That's a logical argument sir.
Yes, yes, I know that there are some assumptions made. I expect that most don't need me to spell them out. It's not a perfect argument because more premises are needed, but the form is valid.

Quote:
Then let the standard of living fall. Seriously, what is the big deal with western nations keeping up this mantel? If standards must fall to better integrate this economy and produce the cheapest, best product, why not? If you live in a palatial mansion and one of your workers lives in a dirt shack, why not? People should be allowed to choose what type of life they without the government trying to keep everyone as close as possible. Hey, if you want to scrub toilets the rest of your life, so be it. If you want to be a corporate executive who gets to keep the money he earns, so be it. In the end, its all about the right to fairness.

Sigh...
I don't know how to disagree with you. I've always been of the opinion that American upper classes should pay heavier and heavier taxes and that efforts to close the economic gaps in the country should be made... but I'm not sure a free for all is the right way to do it. Your method would bring about rapid changes starting from the bottom, which isn't where we need to start. Pressure needs to be applied to the wealthy in this country, which means that they need to be forced to support more than what they currently do.

To be realistic, a complete restructuring of income taxes (and budget) would solve the problem, and we would never have to worry about immigration again. Since congress is made up of rich guys, though, that won't happen.
Since we can't rebuild the system to put pressure on the strongest pillars, the only thing we can do is try to take pressure OFF the weaker ones. That would be middle and working classmen. Taking the pressure off of them requires taking pressure of public systems, and immigrants apply pressure to exactly those systems.
I digress a little, but it's worth mentioning.

I now find myself saying that your goal is the correct one, it's just that I think you take the wrong route to get there.

EDIT:
Another thing that bothers me...
"In order to produce the cheapest, best product..."
In order to produce quality goods at low cost on any reasonable scale is to start off with massive resources.

Think about that for a minute. Allowing universal amnesty to immigrants would mean that median education levels would drop, skilled labor would be replaced by unskilled labor, and the median quality of goods produced in the USA would drop. Keep adding more labor, and the quality of the products continues to drop.

So the question for you is, do you intend to create a world in which everyone is equal?
Or do you intend to create a world in which the best goods are produced at the lowest cost?
I can't see how both of those goals can be met anywhere in the near future, one must come exclusive of the other.

Abridged version:
There aren't enough toilet seats for everyone, vissario. If you keep bringing in people to scrub them, eventually we're gonna run out of toilets.

This reply was last edited on 06-22-07 11:12:46 PM by Menion.

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Quote:
To be realistic, a complete restructuring of income taxes would solve the problem, and we would never have to worry about immigration again. Since congress is made up of rich guys, though, that won't happen.

Are you kidding?

My parents have to pay nearly 1/3 of their combined income to the government because it is over 100,000$. Almost 1/3....29%.... of their income so welfare moms and poor people can support their crack habits and the "work" of finding work. No seriously, the tax burdern on the elite can easily reach 33% after they get 200,000$ a year as compared to 15% (and downward with tons of children) for someone who is making 25,000$ a year.

Now, correct me if i'm wrong, but do you think 30,000$ coming out of your total salary for a year is a good idea when you will probably only benefit from it marginally? No. Why? Because it is not fair and punishes people for being successful. Why bother attempting to become self-sufficient when you can live in government subsidized housing, live on food stamps, and draw a monthly salary from unemployment benefits?

Quote:
Your method would bring about rapid changes starting from the bottom, which isn't where we need to start.

Rapid changes starting with motivating people to either sink or float. To live, or to die by your own merit and not the forced "sympathy" of strangers you don't know. If I ever find myself in a hole, I shouldn't expect other people to help me out unless they truly feel the need to do so.

I don't advocate not helping the poor if that is your thing. I just think it is far more important that human society cut out the cancerous, lazy parts of it by natural selection...social darwinism...instead of letting them propogate and breed off of the socialist system. In the end, the entire race benefits. In the end, my ideas eventually result in human beings realizing what type of future we really want which is most beneficial for themselves. Believe it or not, I, like most libertarians, have the same goal communists do; I want a future where everyone makes good choices which help take care of everyone. The only difference is that I will do so through a grand social evolution stemming from the ground upward, not a leviathan governmental structure (aka. socialism) which force-feeds its ideology through macroeconomics. An evolution which makes one realize "I shall not steal, not because the government will punish me, but because it shall hurt my neighbor, and by the fact that I am a part of his race, hurt me."

Quote:
it's just that I think you take the wrong route to get there.

Just remember what Jehova once told his followers; "The weak shall perish." If I cannot survive the results of the system I advocate, then I have no right to exist. If I have no right to exist, it was better that I was eliminated and made way for someone else more blessed.

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Wow.

I'm being drug to your level and beaten with experience.
I said restructuring of the tax system to take pressure off the middle classes. I hate to tell you this, but your mom and dad are middle class. When I say the elite, I'm talking the folks in the 8-9 hundred range.

Time to drop this argument.

You should move to Africa, the countries there are already set up the way you want them to be.

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Quote:
You should move to Africa, the countries there are already set up the way you want them to be

Except for the fact that the government enforces those caste systems of exploitation, not the consumer.

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Quoted from anaemic_royalty:
Quote:
The reason people hire them over other americans is usually cause they work harder (not cheaper).

Where do you get this from?

They're desperate enough to work for slave-like salaries and they have no legal employee-rights whatsoever, that's why they're hired.
I mean the illegal ones, of course.

I got my information working side by side with illegals from mexico every day. They're not getting any less money than me (more, actually, cause they do more valuable work than I do. surprise.).

So where did you get your info?

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