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Славянец

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Because now we have a much more reliable and unbiased source. And it's name is Conservapedia
Behold the great wisdom of this site:

Quote:
On Wikipedia, many of the dates are provided in the anti-Christian "C.E." instead of "A.D.", which Conservapedia uses. Christianity receives no credit for the great advances and discoveries it inspired, such as those of the Renaissance.

Quote:
Holobaramin: A Holobaramin is a grouping that contains all organisms related by descent, not excluding any. For example, Humans are a holobaramin, but a group containing only Caucasians and Negroes is not a holobaramin since it excludes Mongoloids and other races. Another example would be Dogs, which is a holobaramin since wolves, coyotes, domesticated dogs and other canids are all descended from two individuals taken aboard the Ark, and there are no other creatures that are genetically continuous with them. This term is synonymous with the use of "baramin" above and is the primary term in baraminology.

Quote:
The existence of unicorns is controversial. Secular opinion is that they are mythical. However, they are referred to in the Bible nine times, which provides an unimpeachable de facto argument for their once having been in existence. Christian apologists have advanced various arguments that the biblical unicorn was not a fantasy animal.

Clearly, this site is a superior source and from now on you should be using it instead of Wikipedia to prove your points. From now on anyone who uses Wiki as their source in a debate will lose the debate by default.

Mr Excitable
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If anyone uses wikipedia in a debate they lose. Nice to see the crazy religious folk getting in on the online encyclopedia craze.

mmac
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WTF noob? being referenced to in the bible guarantees that it happened?

Shouldn't you be outside killing some gypsies, and not on the computer?

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Most of their examples of bias in Wikipedia are just omissions that they are too lazy to correct.

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Even the Christianity related articles are grossly incorrect.

Conservatives don't like the Xbox.

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mmac
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It is a tool created by the Jews to steal our souls.

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atlas sighed (at me)
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Quote:
being referenced to in the bible guarantees that it happened?

But being referenced to by ancient "historians" gaurantees that it happened?

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mmac
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Are you asking if an original scroll written days after an event happened, translated from the original edition, coordinated with physical evidence is more reliable than something written 70 years after the fact, with no physical evidence, and retranslated hundreds of times since then?

Is that what you're asking?

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Historians can be biased, and the physical evidence can be difficult to interpret without the proper context.

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Are you asking if an original scroll written days after an event happened

So humans 2,000 years ago were perfect, unbiased, unpaid, and totally truthful unlike people today?

Quote:
coordinated with physical evidence

WTF are you talking about? What "physical evidence" is supporting what abstract idea?

What I was saying is that it is very naive of people to blow off the Bible as untruthful propaganda while accepting other texts of the period as more historically "accurate". Guess what Kojak, I could write a "History" where Serbians conquer the world and colonize Antarctica, and in a thousand years from now when some genius finds the text, he will believe it happened and find whatever evidence he needs to support his pet theory. Now excuse me while I brainstorm and find a huge stone...

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mmac
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True, but understanding the background of the historian and carefully interpreting all the evidence available to you will help you gain a good understanding of what actually happened.

I consider the bible to be a bunch of folktales(as could any other writing), unfortunately we KNOW that the people who wrote the bible were religious fundies.

If you have two options, if you know one is wrong and the other might be wrong, why would you listen to the one you know is wrong.

And many other texts are more historically accurate for no reason other than we're able to study the original document. not something that's been interpreted by untrained, biased scholars hundreds of times before we're actually able to read it.

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This reply was last edited on 03-05-07 12:09:13 PM by mmac.

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Quote:
What I was saying is that it is very naive of people to blow off the Bible as untruthful propaganda while accepting other texts of the period as more historically "accurate". Guess what Kojak, I could write a "History" where Serbians conquer the world and colonize Antarctica, and in a thousand years from now when some genius finds the text, he will believe it happened and find whatever evidence he needs to support his pet theory.

He will be a minority as archaeological finds will dispute him.

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Anyone with common sense knows that the bible is a text that should be used to help someone in their everyday spirtual developement and shouldnt be used as a historical reference.

Tackle 'em all. Let the referee sort it out later.

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all the evidence available to you

Therein lies the flaw with the fields of anthropology and archaeology.

Evidence without context is not evidence at all. This context is what they glean from the writings of people who are all basically the equals of Sean Hannity or Ann Coulter. The reason for this is not because they woke up one day and said "Hey, I think I'll devote my life to confusing people with propaganda 2,000 years from now!", but because they have to write texts which appeal to the person who hired them and, ultimately, the society which they live in. If they don't, they will soon find themselves and their works in the epicenter of a huge book-burning parade with people like DJ running around naked with war paints!

With that, the "evidence", ancient terracotta, armor, weapons, villages, and cities, all fit in only because they were around when that scribe gave his particular view-point about the subject. In a thousand years from, when historians are pondering why the 03' Iraq war occurred, they will only have the opinions of a very, very limited library of works which survived the rest. And I'm sure that they will be looking forward to Ann Coulter's broadcast as much as we all have. omg yah rite fag lol

It may be fun to sit down and wonder about ancient societies while arguing why some were better than others, but the fact is that we will only know one story, not the real story.

[q]He will be a minority as archaeological finds will dispute him.[/quote]

And that is assuming there are other works available which people in the future can base their theories off of. It doesn't matter if there isn't one single settlement in Antartica, if my opinion is the only one remaining, it is the one which wins.

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Quoted from Mr Excitable:
Anyone with common sense knows that the bible is a text that should be used to help someone in their everyday spirtual developement and shouldnt be used as a historical reference.

If you ignore the supernatural parts, the NT can paint a pretty good picture of what life was like during the rabbinic period. It is useful as a historic text.

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Mr Excitable
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Quoted from Zippo:
Quoted from Mr Excitable:
Anyone with common sense knows that the bible is a text that should be used to help someone in their everyday spirtual developement and shouldnt be used as a historical reference.
If you ignore the supernatural parts, the NT can paint a pretty good picture of what life was like during the rabbinic period. It is useful as a historic text.

Yeah, when it comes to religious texts its best to be avoided. Mainly because so many people have altered so much stuff to fit their ideals. But I hear where you are comming from.

Tackle 'em all. Let the referee sort it out later.

mmac
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Maybe you've never taken a history class, so I'll forgive you about this. In most history classes, there are works left behind by both sides of a battle, and they give us a greater understanding of what actually happened. Because after all, just because you loose a battle doesn't mean that every last member of the opposing party is killed, along with all witnesses.

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pff, i can only know one thing for sure anyways; how i'm feeling at the moment

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Quote:
Because after all, just because you loose a battle doesn't mean that every last member of the opposing party is killed, along with all witnesses

Yea, but the civilization which wins does have a tendency to portray itself as the divine guiding light of the ages against the murderous savages. Just like this war in Iraq, no less.

Do you think Saddam's story is going to get equal airtime in history when compared to America's side of the story?

EDIT: forgot "like"

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This reply was last edited on 03-05-07 02:19:49 PM by atlas sighed (at me).

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Quoted from mmac:
Maybe you've never taken a history class, so I'll forgive you about this. In most history classes, there are works left behind by both sides of a battle, and they give us a greater understanding of what actually happened. Because after all, just because you loose a battle doesn't mean that every last member of the opposing party is killed, along with all witnesses.

Literacy is a relatively modern concept.

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D
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This conversation is proving to me that none of you know much about how history is read.

Whenever I hear someone say "history is written by the winners" it fires off a flare in my head saying "this guy has no idea what he's talking about."

You've all made valid points about biases, and literacy, and all that, but you're missing one important part of all that. Historians are aware of this too. Historians don't pick up an ancient text that says "blah blah blah" and go, "yes, this is what happened!" A ridiculous amount of attention is payed to who wrote it, exactly when they wrote it, what their job was, and every possible bias is taken into consideration. The reason why they were writing is just as important (actually, often more important) to historians than what they actually wrote (because of all the things you've mentioned). Interpreting historical documents takes into account as many possible accompanying documents and works incredibly hard to find out who the people were who wrote them, and what reasons they might writing them. If they can't get a good enough picture of that, then the document is generally not given very much weight. You're not the first people to realize that interpreting history encounters a huge amount of problems dealing with biases of the writers - and the entire field of history is based around understanding those biases to help understand what really happened.

Of course, the further back we go the fewer accompanying documents we can find to go with something. Thats why the further back we go, the (admittedly) fuzzier everything gets.

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You are correct, Dimi; I wasn't arguing that. My point (and I am assuming vissario's as well) is that all historical documents are of questionable veracity and are subject to scrutiny, not just the scriptural ones.

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understand what really happened.

Unless you are going to invent a time machine, that pipe dream will stay a pipe dream.

Quote:
Whenever I hear someone say "history is written by the winners" it fires off a flare in my head saying "this guy has no idea what he's talking about."

So, who is remembered as the nation of greater evil after the cold war Dimi? The USSR, or the United States?

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You're like a bad historian. Instead of looking at all the information presented to you, you pick and choose a couple that work best for your argument.

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Quote:
you pick and choose a couple that work best for your argument.

Last time I recalled, it was only a certain point in your post that I disagreed with learn u some stuff ok??

So, are you just going to call me a name, run away like a little bitch, and concede that the modern bias against the Soviet Union in the West is because it was its geo-political foe for some 40 years? Guess what, the victors truly do get to write whatever they want to, and most of the time, it doesn't pass them off as the 'bad guy' in any situation.

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