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Snook
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(Originally posted on: 10-25-06 11:58:22 PM)
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Wired.com recently ran an article on "The New Atheism", which promotes the idea that there can be no room for *any* religions, period. "New Atheists" claim that religion will lead to the destruction of humanity, and the article compares them to fundamentalists, in that they give no quarter to fence-sitters and those who prefer to be tolerant of religion.

Personally, although I find the idea intellectually sound and it seems right, I just can't cope fully with the intolerance of religion as a whole. It's proponents make a very convincing argument, and although I want to believe it, I am simply too tolerant at heart. Maybe after grappling with the idea for a while I'll come to accept it, but for now I am content with what I believe - which is to say that there is no God or deity or whatever - that the only reasonable belief is reason, science, and logic itself.

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Reply 1 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 01:12:44 AM)
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for all intents and purposes, a belief system that disregards religion seems to be exhibiting the features of just such a religion
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Reply 2 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 01:52:07 AM)
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F*cking xtians. ever heard of darwin bitch?? let atheists rule th e world and let Xtians go to heaven like they want to. Kill all Xtians.

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Reply 3 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 02:01:08 AM)
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Intolerance doesnt 'work'...neither does extreme tolerance, people just take advantage. Human nature is flawed, there is no cure, only palliative care.

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Reply 4 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 02:50:49 AM)
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Quoted from Xunny:
for all intents and purposes, a belief system that disregards religion seems to be exhibiting the features of just such a religion

No, disregarding religion is logical. The burden of proof is on religion, not atheists.
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Reply 5 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 03:02:38 AM)
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Yet I have to listen to annoying fucks of all creeds preach about whatever it is they feel is so right.
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Reply 6 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 03:08:20 AM)
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Quoted from antpocas:
Quoted from Xunny:
for all intents and purposes, a belief system that disregards religion seems to be exhibiting the features of just such a religion

No, disregarding religion is logical. The burden of proof is on religion, not atheists.

atheism has reached a level where it has, ironically, become the belief of not believing. it's no more as much a rejection of a God, than it is now a dogma inherently directed at practicing such rejection that adheres and venerates the concepts of logic, humanism and to a degree - philosophy.

it has - in a sense - sought religion in practice while psychologically working against it.

you are right that the burden of proof lies upon those who have gods to prove gods, but requiring this burden of proof from others is not, nor the actions and removal of religions in general, a necessity or a desired outcome for one who becomes atheist. that this "New Atheism" is using Atheism to blanket its rhetoric is a fallacy that is so very evident in religion and in extremist ideologies.
This reply was last edited on 10-26-06 03:13:35 AM by Sunn O))).
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Reply 7 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 05:05:05 AM)
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It's not like they're advocating the execution of the religious, now is it? I think the article exaggerates quite a bit.
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Reply 8 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 06:12:05 AM)
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Quoted from Sukkit:
It's not like they're advocating the execution of the religious, now is it?
That would be glorious.
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Reply 9 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 07:14:29 AM)
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Great, another group of people to condemn agnostics like me.

May I coin the phrase Neo-Atheism now?
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Reply 10 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 10:49:56 AM)
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Quoted from British Agent:
Great, another group of people to condemn agnostics like me.

May I coin the phrase Neo-Atheism now?


Too late.
http://www.neoatheism.com/
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Reply 11 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 12:04:11 PM)
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What I'm about to say is completely retarded but I once combined logic with religion and came up with some interesting and totally unprovable conclusions.

Keep in mind I still can't explain how light fits into all of this.

1) The big-bang theory happens and God created the heavens and the earth

2) Darwins theory of evolution begins and God created all the plants and animals

3) Darwins theory of evolution continues and God creates man

etc...

Sometimes I get so stupid, I think I'm a genius.
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Reply 12 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 12:20:59 PM)
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Euch, when are people gonna understand that the Bible wasn't written by God but by humans through God's will.

It's not the fucking truth, it's a fucking metaphor right upto the New Testament (although blatantly, science has proven much of the late Old Testament to be true).

Jeez, I'm a fucking archaeologist and even I can accept Christianity, in it's pure and tolerant form, to be a good way for a person to live their life.

I hate Neoatheism with avengance. Religeon will not destroy humanity - intollerance will.
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Reply 13 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 12:22:32 PM)
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Oh, and I'm not Religeous. I just study religeons of past and present.

I tell you, those motherfucking Aztecs got it right when it came to social restructuring:

SACRIFICE THE NEDS! MORE BLOOD FOR THE SUN GOD!
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Reply 14 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 12:43:56 PM)
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Quoted from swiss:
Oh, and I'm not Religeous. I just study religeons of past and present.

I tell you, those motherfucking Aztecs got it right when it came to social restructuring:

SACRIFICE THE NEDS! MORE BLOOD FOR THE SUN GOD!
One of my professors is a rather well-known biblical archaeologist, so you might've heard of him. His name is Juris Zarins. You might've heard of him because he does interviews about where the Garden of Eden is located (atleast where he has determined it to be).

Quote:
Juris Zarins was born in Germany in 1945. He and his parents, who came from Latvia, emigrated to the U.S. soon after he was born. Juri graduated from high school in Lincoln, Nebraska in 1963 and earned a B.A. in anthropology from the University of Nebraska in 1967. He served in the U.S. Army in Vietnam before completing his Ph.D. in Ancient Near Eastern Languages and Archaeology at the University of Chicago in 1974. He then served as archaeological adviser to the Department of Antiquities of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia before coming to Missouri State in 1978.

Dr. Zarins has extensive experience in archaeological fieldwork in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Oman, and is now involved in a new project in Yemen. He was chief archaeologist for the Transarabia Expedition which made the famous discovery of the ancient city of Ubar in 1992. This made the headline of the New York Times, and it was also named one of the ten most important discoveries of the year by Discover, Time, and Newsweek magazines. The expedition was featured in a NOVA program called "In Search of the Lost City," which was first broadcast in 1996. Read an interview with Dr. Zarins on the Ubar Expedition at
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ubar/zarins/


ANYHOW. I figure people are going to believe in whatever belief-system works for them. I don't care what that belief system may be, but that doesn't imply I wish to hear about it either. If you're an atheist that speaks down to people that believe in religious, to me, you're just as much of a cock as someone who is religious and speaks down to atheists. Both are annoying.
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Reply 15 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 01:17:47 PM)
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I'm not against religious belief but I *am* against organised religion. Down with the clergy!
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Reply 16 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 07:47:02 PM)
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One day I am going to kill all people, smile, and kill myself.


Yeah, not really, but seriously, people are dumb, bronze-age or earlier mythologies shouldn't have as much weight as they do in modern society, but since they are quite literally memes, they will continue to do so.
"Poets say science takes away from the beauty of the stars— mere globs of gas atoms. Nothing is 'mere'. I too can see the stars on a desert night, and feel them. But do I see less or more? The vastness of the heavens stretches my imagination— stuck on this carousel my little eye can catch one-million-year-old light. A vast pattern— of which I am a part... What is the pattern or the meaning or the why? It does not do harm to the mystery to know a little more about it. For far more marvelous is the truth than any artists of the past imagined it. Why do the poets of the present not speak of it? What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent."
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Reply 17 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 07:47:10 PM)
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science owes itself to religion because without religion, people would not have begun to study the world around them in an attempt to better understand god/the ultimate truth/what have you

religion in itself is peaceful and reflective... it is only violent as interpreted by its most fundamentalist (and stupid) suscribers

so basically these neo-atheists are full of shit

and kudos to sunny; i actually agree with her (him?) about something for once

also antpocas and sandy can fuck each other to the death
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Reply 18 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 08:05:16 PM)
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Quoted from Alloy:
I'm not against religious belief but I *am* against organised religion. Down with the clergy!


Is this a reaction against Catholicism? I just want to know which clergy you're talking about.

By the way, Snook, if you're serious about the whole tolerance for all thing, then you'd make a great United Methodist. It's a protestant denomination that denounced the war in Iraq as evil.

The problem isn't religion, it's fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims, and now, Atheists, are the problem, not the solution. Fundamentalism will destroy humanity, not religion.

And Alloy, the problem isn't the clergy, it's a powerless laity. Laypeople within the catholic church should be able to vote on the major issues. The point of the clergy isn't to tell people what to do, it's to help start a discussion, organize action, and provide educated opinion. Don't like the clergy? Tell them laypeople should be able to vote on things like contraceptives and abortion. Even the pope can be wrong, I mean hell, look at Benny.
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Reply 19 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 08:06:54 PM)
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Quoted from cunterhoXen:
science owes itself to religion because without religion, people would not have begun to study the world around them in an attempt to better understand god/the ultimate truth/what have you

religion in itself is peaceful and reflective... it is only violent as interpreted by its most fundamentalist (and stupid) suscribers

so basically these neo-atheists are full of shit

and kudos to sunny; i actually agree with her (him?) about something for once

also antpocas and sandy can fuck each other to the death


No...Science owes itself to natural philosophy, particularly Aristotle of all people since he was really the first one who promoted the idea that by understanding nature in a concrete way one could gain knowledge. Religon only served to provide a simple answer: "god did it" whereas natural philosophy set out to try to explain the world without the use of deities.
"Poets say science takes away from the beauty of the stars— mere globs of gas atoms. Nothing is 'mere'. I too can see the stars on a desert night, and feel them. But do I see less or more? The vastness of the heavens stretches my imagination— stuck on this carousel my little eye can catch one-million-year-old light. A vast pattern— of which I am a part... What is the pattern or the meaning or the why? It does not do harm to the mystery to know a little more about it. For far more marvelous is the truth than any artists of the past imagined it. Why do the poets of the present not speak of it? What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent."
"Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool."
"You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing —that's what counts. I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something."
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt."
All by R. Feynman.
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Reply 20 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 08:48:21 PM)
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that is also true, but lots of modern scientists were religious people

see: Boyle, Newton, Mendel

also the muslims made great innovations in science and technology at least as early as the 8th c ce
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Reply 21 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 09:05:02 PM)
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Acheron's point echoes much of what I implied above. Extremist EVERYTHING is irritating, whether it be religious/scientific/political/atheist, whatever. Extremistis are annoying and never shutup, it seems.
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Reply 22 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 09:14:09 PM)
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Quoted from Acheron:
Quoted from Alloy:
I'm not against religious belief but I *am* against organised religion. Down with the clergy!


Is this a reaction against Catholicism? I just want to know which clergy you're talking about.

By the way, Snook, if you're serious about the whole tolerance for all thing, then you'd make a great United Methodist. It's a protestant denomination that denounced the war in Iraq as evil.

The problem isn't religion, it's fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims, and now, Atheists, are the problem, not the solution. Fundamentalism will destroy humanity, not religion.

And Alloy, the problem isn't the clergy, it's a powerless laity. Laypeople within the catholic church should be able to vote on the major issues. The point of the clergy isn't to tell people what to do, it's to help start a discussion, organize action, and provide educated opinion. Don't like the clergy? Tell them laypeople should be able to vote on things like contraceptives and abortion. Even the pope can be wrong, I mean hell, look at Benny.


What happens when the laypeople decide to organize and vote to change the things that the religion is based on, the unchangeable Truths and dogmas? You just gonna trust that they wont do that? This idea goes against everything taught in Catholocism about Catholocism. If you transformed Catholocism into your idea, it wouldn't be Catholocism at all anymore. Not at all.
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Reply 23 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 09:21:47 PM)
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Beliefs, by themselves, should not be the domain of government. But neither should beliefs, by themselves, grant any special treatment. Government should then be blind to religion, neither promoting nor interfering with it.

As for extremism, sometimes it's right. History demonstrates that the minority view was at times the correct one.

Also, scientists, philosophers, and pretty much everyone of a few hundred years ago were Christians because it was impossible to be an atheist with any standing in Western society.
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Reply 24 of 64 (Originally posted on: 10-26-06 09:33:45 PM)
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Quoted from DiXi:
Quoted from Acheron:
Quoted from Alloy:
I'm not against religious belief but I *am* against organised religion. Down with the clergy!


Is this a reaction against Catholicism? I just want to know which clergy you're talking about.

By the way, Snook, if you're serious about the whole tolerance for all thing, then you'd make a great United Methodist. It's a protestant denomination that denounced the war in Iraq as evil.

The problem isn't religion, it's fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims, and now, Atheists, are the problem, not the solution. Fundamentalism will destroy humanity, not religion.

And Alloy, the problem isn't the clergy, it's a powerless laity. Laypeople within the catholic church should be able to vote on the major issues. The point of the clergy isn't to tell people what to do, it's to help start a discussion, organize action, and provide educated opinion. Don't like the clergy? Tell them laypeople should be able to vote on things like contraceptives and abortion. Even the pope can be wrong, I mean hell, look at Benny.


What happens when the laypeople decide to organize and vote to change the things that the religion is based on, the unchangeable Truths and dogmas? You just gonna trust that they wont do that? This idea goes against everything taught in Catholocism about Catholocism. If you transformed Catholocism into your idea, it wouldn't be Catholocism at all anymore. Not at all.

That's already happened - last recent one being in the 50s and 60 - and to some it's not Catholicism. Most Catholics have accepted it, though, so it continues. Religious beliefs are not infalliable, they tend to change with the leaders and with those who believe in it. It doesn't take much to produce a religion, actually, and Catholicism is a prime example. Christianity did not begin as one mere religion, it split off as soon as Jesus died, and with one or two cases, even before then. Since then, Christianity and Catholicism have split in many directions due to one individual's own beliefs, and the willingness of others to follow those beliefs.

Quote:
As for extremism, sometimes it's right. History demonstrates that the minority view was at times the correct one.

minorities do not equal extremes, nor can it be determined if a minority view in history was the 'correct' choice. An extreme opinion seeks to dominate, minority opinions offer alternatives. in no way or form do extreme opinions seek compromise, although, more or less, minority opinions tend to offer some form of reconciliation.

I personally do not like extremes of any kind. I much prefer a chance to work between varying opinions, not relying so much on one extreme's unwillingness to do so.

Quote:
Also, scientists, philosophers, and pretty much everyone of a few hundred years ago were Christians because it was impossible to be an atheist with any standing in Western society.


it wasn't impossible, those who risked atheism were often excommunicated, but continued their standing if their works were predominant enough and were widely popular. Most who were atheists did not wish to be discredited because they were atheist, so they put on a guise of Christianity. It does not mean they were any less atheist despite it. There were, however, scientists who were highly devoted to their religions. At times they realized that some of what they did would contradict their religion, but most had enough belief in their religion to not throw it away, nor understand others throwing it away, over a scientific work. Science was an aspect of their life they didn't see as a cause to rid their religion, though some certainly did. Others just took the contraditions in stride, and continue to remain devoted.

It did so happen that there were scientists who made the choice between religion and their work, and picked religion. The number of works we do get from scientific authors, however, makes such contributions to science irrelevant. There were also religious officials who refused to see the status quo interrupted by science, and made it their life to stop it, to some degree or another.
This reply was last edited on 10-26-06 09:48:30 PM by Sunn O))).
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