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Science Brad
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(Originally posted on: 07-13-06 04:49:25 PM)
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http://www.cnn.com/

Quote:
Israel attacks Beirut airport after rockets hit Haifa

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israeli forces struck Beirut's international airport for the second time Thursday, hitting fuel tanks that exploded into fireballs.

The attack came soon after two rockets struck the northern Israeli port of Haifa on a day of spiraling violence and deepening crisis.

Israel Defense Forces said the Haifa rockets came from Lebanon and blamed the strike on Hezbollah, whose guerrillas triggered the violence when they attacked inside Israel on Wednesday, killing eight Israeli soldiers and capturing two more. (Watch as fighting along the border intensifies -- 1:45)

Daniel Ayalon, the Israeli ambassador to the United States, said the Haifa attack was "a major, major escalation."

Hezbollah earlier had threatened to hit Haifa, but Lebanese TV reported that the militant group denied launching the attack on the city of 280,000.

Ambulance services said no one was hurt in the attack, which -- if confirmed -- would be the first time Hezbollah rockets have hit so deeply into Israeli territory.

Earlier Thursday Israel's warplanes bombed Beirut's international airport for the first time and its navy began a blockade of Lebanon's ports.

Hundreds of targets from the border north to the capital were attacked, the IDF said.

Hezbollah guerrillas fired scores of rockets from Lebanon into northern Israel in the most intense bombardment in years.

Some 45 people and two soldiers have been killed inside Lebanon since Wednesday, the country's health ministry said, while the rocket attacks killed at least one woman in Israel in the wake of the initial violence that saw the Israeli soldiers killed and captured.

Lebanon also said 103 people were hurt by the Israeli attacks, The Associated Press reported, while the IDF said 90 people had been injured by the rockets hitting Israel.

One rocket attack Thursday on the northern Israeli town of Nahariya hit a group of journalists, the AP said.

Both Israel and Lebanon have said the violence amounts to acts of war.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert called the attacks and abductions an "act of war" and blamed the Lebanese government, which he said would be held responsible for the two soldiers' safe release.

Lebanese Interior Minister Ahmed Fatfat called Israel's retaliatory attack on Beirut airport a "general act of war," saying the strikes had nothing to do with Hezbollah but were instead an attack against the country's "economic interests," especially its tourism industry.

Beirut's Rafik Hariri International Airport was forced to close after Israeli fighter jets hit all three of its runways, leaving huge craters that made them unusable. All flights have been diverted. (Airport map)

Two other Lebanese airports were attacked Thursday morning, the IDF said.

The Israeli military gave no details, but Lebanese army sources said that the Rayak Air Base in the Bekaa Valley near the Syrian border had been hit as well as a small military airport in Qulayaat in northern Lebanon.

Israel said it targeted the international airport because it was a transfer point for weapons and supplies to Hezbollah.

Israeli warships were stationed off all of Lebanon's ports to enforce the naval blockade, Reuters news agency reported.

Lebanese Information Minister Ghazi Aridi called for a comprehensive cease-fire, saying the Lebanese government had nothing to do with the Hezbollah attacks.

After Israel's airport strike, planes began dropping leaflets warning residents of an impending attack on an area of southern Beirut where Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah is believed to live. (Watch initial reports on the runway bombings -- 6:00)
Israel: 'We mean business'

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Thursday he fears a "regional war is mounting" with Israel's military campaigns in Lebanon and Gaza, where forces were deployed after last month's capture of an Israeli soldier.

"This is not our interest and will not bring peace and stability to the region," Abbas said, referring to "this [Israeli] aggression."

President Bush said all countries had a right to defend themselves butwarned Israel to take care not to "weaken" Lebanon's government. (Full story)

Bush also stressed during a visit to Germany that Syria "needs to be held to account."

Hezbollah enjoys substantial backing from Syria and Iran and is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel. The group holds posts in Lebanon's government.

Israeli Security Cabinet Minister Isaac Herzog said: "We are taking strong measures so that it will be clear to the Lebanese people and government ... that we mean business."

The United Nations will send a team to the Middle East to urge both sides to use restraint, a spokesman for Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Thursday. (Full story)

The Security Council will hold an "urgent meeting" Friday at the request of Lebanon to address escalating the tensions, France's U.N. ambassador Jean-Marc de La Sabliere said Thursday.
Captives named

Israeli airstrikes were aimed at targets used by Hezbollah for storing weapons, the IDF said.

Warplanes also hit al-Manar television station because Hezbollah uses it to incite and recruit activists, the IDF said. A broadcast tower was destroyed and three people injured, but the station was able to continue broadcasting, al-Manar editor Ibrahim Moussawi said.

Israel's Cabinet authorized a "severe and harsh" response to the abduction of two soldiers, named Thursday as Ehud Goldvasser, 31, from Nahariya, and Eldad Regev, 26, from the Haifa suburb of Kiryat Motzkin.

Hezbollah called for a prisoner exchange but, as in Gaza, Israel has rejected the call.

Hezbollah chief Nasrallah told reporters that seizing the soldiers was "our natural, only and logical right" to win freedom for Hezbollah prisoners held by Israel.

Nasrallah said the two soldiers had been taken to a place "far, far away" and that an Israeli military campaign would not win their release.

More than 70 Katyusha rockets have hit Israel in the past 24 hours, the IDF said.

Missiles critically injured one person and hurt at least 10 others in Safed, about 13 miles (20 kilometers) from the Lebanese border, which local officials said not been hit by Hezbollah rockets since 1972.

Also in northern Israel, a woman was killed and 15 people hurt in a rocket attack in Nahariya, and at least 38 people were injured when rockets hit the Arab village of Carmiel, Israeli ambulance services said.

CNN's Barbara Starr and John Vause and journalist Anthony Mills in Beirut contributed to this report.



So it seems Israel and Lebanon both agree the actions are 'acts of war'. Is this the opening volley of yet another war in that region? Earlier today I might not have thought so, but after checking up on it, the fighting continues with more bombing and rocketing. Furthermore, is this a clear example of the so called Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive military strikes against another nation? I've heard some say that, but if I read correctly, this is all in response to hostages. Still, said response seems a tad much. What do you all have to say I wonder?
"Poets say science takes away from the beauty of the stars mere globs of gas atoms. Nothing is 'mere'. I too can see the stars on a desert night, and feel them. But do I see less or more? The vastness of the heavens stretches my imagination stuck on this carousel my little eye can catch one-million-year-old light. A vast pattern of which I am a part... What is the pattern or the meaning or the why? It does not do harm to the mystery to know a little more about it. For far more marvelous is the truth than any artists of the past imagined it. Why do the poets of the present not speak of it? What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent."
"Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool."
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Reply 1 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 04:59:17 PM)
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I'm surprised by the lack of effort by Israel to stop the escalation of violence. It seems like they don't care about the possible outcome a war in Lebanon might have.

The double moral standards on the Israeli side make me sick. How should the Palestinians respond to the beach shelling, then? And to the "selective murders" that kill as many terrorists as innocent by-passers?
"Hwt, he on a tid e he inne bi, ne bi hrinen mid y storme s wintres; ac t bi an eagan bryhtm and t lste fc, ac he sona of wintre on one winter eft cyme hwt r foregange, oe hwt r fylige, we ne cunnen."
"Lo, he, in the time that he is inside, is not touched by the storm of the winter, but that is an eye's winking and the least time, but he straightway comes back from winter into winter, what thereto may precede or what to it may follow, we do not know."
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Reply 2 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 05:30:36 PM)
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Israel should look into its short term memory and remember what happened the last time it invaded Lebanon.

Shelling the residential blocks of Beirut because the Hezbollah have killed a few Israeli soldiers is a useless and disproportionate reaction. There's plenty of Maronites Christians in Lebanon who dislike Hezbollah - use them. Launch vast intelligence operation, force the Lebanese government to cooperate; going into a full scale war isn't going to help at all.

Besides, is anybody else noting the coincidence?

When was the last time Israel went to war with Lebanon? 1982. Who won the World Cup back then? big grin
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Reply 3 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 05:47:25 PM)
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But fortunately for everyone Sharon is dead learn u some stuff ok??
"Hwt, he on a tid e he inne bi, ne bi hrinen mid y storme s wintres; ac t bi an eagan bryhtm and t lste fc, ac he sona of wintre on one winter eft cyme hwt r foregange, oe hwt r fylige, we ne cunnen."
"Lo, he, in the time that he is inside, is not touched by the storm of the winter, but that is an eye's winking and the least time, but he straightway comes back from winter into winter, what thereto may precede or what to it may follow, we do not know."
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Reply 4 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 05:54:09 PM)
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Quote:
How should the Palestinians respond to the beach shelling, then?


By acknowledging that it defnitely wasn't Israel and that anyone who says otherwise is a fearful terrorist-sympathiser, of course.

Seriously though, while I obviously agree that invading or otherwise attacking Hezbollah in Lebanon would be a gross over-reaction, ruling it out does beg the question of exactly what the Israelis are supposed to do.

The trouble with democracy is that it's rather prone to being swayed by public opinion, and the trouble with public opinion is that it tends to be fickle, ill-informed and reactionary.

No doubt the Israeli government is being bombarded with outraged messages from its citizens telling it that "something must be done" without specifying what or why. It's response, and indeed the response of most governments in such circumstances, seems to be to try and "act tough." Let's hope it doesn't go any further.

At the risk of being embarrassed when Israeli tanks roll into Beiruit, I can't see it coming to war, for the reason which HK outlined - i.e. last time they tried it it wasn't a success, and most of the lectorate is probably well aware of this.
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Reply 5 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 06:10:48 PM)
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This isnt going to go anywhere, the possibility of a full-scale war there is slim. Most people learned their lessons about escalation and retaliation.
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Reply 6 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 06:11:19 PM)
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3. We must be in a position to respond to every act of opposition by war with the neighbors of that country which dares to oppose us: but if these neighbors should also venture to stand collectively together against us, then we must offer resistance by a universal war.

4. The principal factor of success in the political is the secrecy of its undertakings: the word should not agree with the deeds of the diplomat.

5. We must compel the governments of the GOYIM to take action in the direction favored by our widely conceived plan, already approaching the desired consummation, by what we shall represent as public opinion, secretly promoted by us through the means of that so-called "Great Power" - THE PRESS, WHICH, WITH A FEW EXCEPTIONS THAT MAY BE DISREGARDED, IS ALREADY ENTIRELY IN OUR HANDS.

“Was der Tod der Elf einmal bedeuten wird, vermgen heute nur wenige zu ahnen — noch weniger kann ich darber schreiben. Wir stehen mitten in einer grossen Zeitenwende. Was wir alle durchmachen sind ihre Geburtswehen. Alles scheint negativ — und einmal wird dann doch Neues and Grosses geboren werden....”

RUDOLF HESS
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Reply 7 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 06:14:48 PM)
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Hey look, it's a quote from a book full of bullshit.
"Hwt, he on a tid e he inne bi, ne bi hrinen mid y storme s wintres; ac t bi an eagan bryhtm and t lste fc, ac he sona of wintre on one winter eft cyme hwt r foregange, oe hwt r fylige, we ne cunnen."
"Lo, he, in the time that he is inside, is not touched by the storm of the winter, but that is an eye's winking and the least time, but he straightway comes back from winter into winter, what thereto may precede or what to it may follow, we do not know."
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Reply 8 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 07:02:21 PM)
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Just another potention place for me, and my buddies to go risk our lives.
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Reply 9 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 07:08:38 PM)
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You people honestly think that Israel was spending almost half of its GDP on military hardware, supply, and technology just to maintain the peace? They are, in the best tradition of their ancestors, carrying on the fight.

Anyways, according to my Number #1 site for unbiased information and truth, Jewwatch.com, this is yet another attempt at a Zionist take over of the world by first securing the oil fields of the Muslim middle east and eventually forcing America to punish Europe for its past oppressions against the Jews.
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Reply 10 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 07:23:14 PM)
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For anyone who was curious as to exactly these Hezbollah folks are as I was, this is helpful:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/hezbollah/index.html


Quoted from Sukkit:
But fortunately for everyone Sharon is dead learn u some stuff ok??
Well, almost.
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Reply 11 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 07:26:39 PM)
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Quoted from Dante:
Well, almost.

He's still alive? After all this time without hearing about his state I had simply forgotten about him and assumed he was dead.

Unplug him already, people.
"Hwt, he on a tid e he inne bi, ne bi hrinen mid y storme s wintres; ac t bi an eagan bryhtm and t lste fc, ac he sona of wintre on one winter eft cyme hwt r foregange, oe hwt r fylige, we ne cunnen."
"Lo, he, in the time that he is inside, is not touched by the storm of the winter, but that is an eye's winking and the least time, but he straightway comes back from winter into winter, what thereto may precede or what to it may follow, we do not know."
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Reply 12 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 07:50:40 PM)
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Quoted from Sukkit:
Quoted from Dante:
Well, almost.

He's still alive? After all this time without hearing about his state I had simply forgotten about him and assumed he was dead.

Unplug him already, people.
This is making me curious as well. There's nothing on CNN about him, but that might be due to the fact that I get about one hour of CNN International here in Kentucky a day. I really need a better world news station.


I don't think the US will get any further involved than it is already, which is pretty much selling a shit-ton of weapons to Israel and hoping they fuck up Lebanon, and maybe Syria and Iran in the process.

If it does somehow get further than Lebanon, we'll intervene and find ourselves with even more desert property than we'll ever need.
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Reply 13 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 08:11:13 PM)
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Lebanon can hardly get any more fucked up than it already is. Syria is out of the business, as per its recent withdrawal from the country. Nothing like 180,000 American soldiers camping out in the desert next door to let them know it's no time to be anywhere near Israel.

Hezbollah is thriving off Iranian cash. So that conflict could potentially escalate much further, especially if Ahmadinejad starts barking up the Zionist tree once again, with a nuclear sprinkle over it to drive the point home.

North Korea will be hoping hard this diverts American attention away from their shores, so they can chuck a couple more "ICBMs" in the Pacific Ocean.

As a side note, Israel spends about 8% of its GDP on the military. There'll probably be more shit coming from the USA under a different name, so make it 10% maybe.
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Reply 14 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 08:49:41 PM)
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Bleh, I was wrong

According to the CIA World Fact Book, Israel spends 7.7 % of its GDP on military expenditures.

Quote:
with a nuclear sprinkle over it to drive the point home.



At nearly all estimates, it will take years for Iran to successfully develop a nuclear weapon which it can use to exterminate the Zionist threat.
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Reply 15 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 10:48:41 PM)
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Quoted from Sukkit:
Quoted from Dante:
Well, almost.

He's still alive? After all this time without hearing about his state I had simply forgotten about him and assumed he was dead.

Unplug him already, people.
Yeah, after a thorough CNN.com search, I'm 99.9% sure that he's still just a vegetable.
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STFU, biatch
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Reply 16 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 11:13:26 PM)
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...leaves the whole world blind etc.

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Reply 17 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-13-06 11:48:57 PM)
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This is pretty much a nightmare revisited.
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Reply 18 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-14-06 12:09:30 AM)
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In answer to the Sharon question, he is in a coma from which is is not expected to emerge, and if he did somehow, would be so debilitated about the most he could do is nod when someone asks him if he wants to make a formal resignation. He has already been stripped of power and is just as well as dead in terms of politics.

Israel isn't very likely to try to occupy Lebanon, which is why they are instead mainly bombing it. Different situations lead to different actions. The occupation was a hassle, but they stayed 22 years and could have stayed longer. Whether they will choose to stay again is obviously unknown, but they certainly have the ability.

Iran has threatened action from "the whole Islamic world" if Israel attacks Syria, but whether Israel will, or if anyone besides Iran would join the fight is certainly up in the air. However I think posters here are greatly underestimating Israel's strength, which is why they haven't had an attempted invasion since 1973 (and 1967 before that) when they routed all their bordering enemies and even took land from Egypt and Syria in the process. If defeating Israel was easy, they would have tried long ago. As for defeating a loose confederation of guerrilla militants (in the sense of them disbanding and no one bothering anymore), that is of course very difficult.

As for what Israel should do, it seems to depend for most people whether they think it has a right to exist at all. If you think they shouldn't, then nothing they do is justified. Otherwise, attacking an enemy in this situation or not is mainly a diplomatic issue. Not that I necessarily agree with the very aggressive actions in a pragmatic sense, but the idea that you shouldn't wage a war or make an attack because civilians might die is ridiculous. Wars always have civilian casualties, often outnumbering the military ones, and whether or not it is justifiable is subjective.
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Reply 19 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-14-06 03:53:06 AM)
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just another thing for alienated muslims to feel pissed off about
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Reply 20 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-14-06 04:14:45 AM)
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Quoted from Tazzo:
just another thing for alienated muslims to feel pissed off about
It sure is lonely when you're sitting on 70% of the world's crude oil supply MAGUSMAGUSMAGUSMAGUS
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Reply 21 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-14-06 04:24:43 AM)
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Quoted from Tazzo:
just another thing for alienated muslims to feel pissed off about


Perhaps, but I would never base any decision on whether or not someone I find unreasonable is going to be pissed off. Teenagers are perpetually alienated, but it doesn't mean I would hand over control of all public policy to them.

You could make the counter-argument that the kidnappings are just another worthless thing to embolden the right-wing extremist elements in Israel, who will then have the support within their country to strike. It's always dangerous to poke bears.
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Reply 22 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-14-06 09:10:34 AM)
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Quote:
However I think posters here are greatly underestimating Israel's strength

I don't think we're underestimating the IDF. They would have little trouble defeating the Syrian and Iranian armies combined, but that wouldn't make occupying the Lebanon any easier, which is why most people here tend to think they will not try.

Israel would have nothing to gain from a real war right now, I think, so I still find it hard to believe this will become one. In a war you need reasonable objectives.
"Hwt, he on a tid e he inne bi, ne bi hrinen mid y storme s wintres; ac t bi an eagan bryhtm and t lste fc, ac he sona of wintre on one winter eft cyme hwt r foregange, oe hwt r fylige, we ne cunnen."
"Lo, he, in the time that he is inside, is not touched by the storm of the winter, but that is an eye's winking and the least time, but he straightway comes back from winter into winter, what thereto may precede or what to it may follow, we do not know."
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Reply 23 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-14-06 09:21:38 AM)
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Quote:
In a war you need reasonable objectives.


Who has said national pride isn't one of them?
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Reply 24 of 94 (Originally posted on: 07-14-06 09:26:34 AM)
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That's not an objective at all. That might be a cause, but not an objective.
"Hwt, he on a tid e he inne bi, ne bi hrinen mid y storme s wintres; ac t bi an eagan bryhtm and t lste fc, ac he sona of wintre on one winter eft cyme hwt r foregange, oe hwt r fylige, we ne cunnen."
"Lo, he, in the time that he is inside, is not touched by the storm of the winter, but that is an eye's winking and the least time, but he straightway comes back from winter into winter, what thereto may precede or what to it may follow, we do not know."
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