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Hoff
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(Originally posted on: 05-15-06 06:25:44 PM)
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Anyone watch the Presidents speech on Immigration? What did you think? Agree? Disagree?
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Reply 1 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-15-06 07:22:02 PM)
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How about you? Since you created a thread and all.. what do YOU think? Do you agree or disagree?
Adopt a leggo my eggo ifo.
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C
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Reply 2 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-15-06 07:29:36 PM)
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I think the democratic response was kind of crappy. Also, I'm jumping at the prospect of getting to guard the Mexican border.
Realize that falling in love with someone is just the results of a series of generic events that can occur between you and basically anyone who meets your standards of attractiveness. It's just an emotional manifestation of a handfull of chemicals bouncing back and forth. It's not the holy grail of living, it's not your reason to exist and it's definitely not something reserved for "that one person". Accept that you are just an animal with a big brain that allows him to fret over what only amounts to a game of hormone pool. What you're feeling is not your soul dying a gurgling, ugly death, but withdrawal. All the happy chemicals that saturated your body when you were with her are kicking out cold turkey, and your body is screaming bloody murder, where are my fucking endorphins? It's just chocolate. Find a new bar.
Hoff
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Reply 3 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-15-06 08:21:57 PM)
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I'm not a really big fan of his plan. I think you need to higher more border troops and even bring in the national guard is fine. But efforts should be made to making a formidable wall. A wall is the most effective way to keep illegals out. I also don't like the guest worker program. Although the president says it is not amnesty, it is. Crack down on the workers who higher illegal aliens so the illegals don't have any jobs. If they dont have jobs then they will have to go home. Once home then they can get in line and commence the process of coming here legally.

Also, work should be put into the process of legalizing someone. If this can be done quickly and safely it will help ease the pain of the lack of illegal works. I also think that if there were no illegal workers, the jobs that no americans will work, the pay will go up because they need workers. If the pay goes up then it will attract america workers which would provide more jobs.

problem solved, Hoff for president. ha
IB
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Reply 4 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-15-06 08:41:58 PM)
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if we build a wall the mongols will just come and fuck with it.

the whole concept that making the citizenship process easier isn't fair to those who have already gone through it is absolute bullshit, that's like saying fixing a roller coaster that kills people is unfair to the people it's already killed. only with a better metaphor.

and i hate to use this argument but it holds up: hoff, who's going to do all the shitty jobs that your plan leaves unfilled? i realize you think the pay is gonna go up in the vacuum but i'm guessing a lot of businesses are only still above water at this point because of their practice of employing illegals. who's to say those employers won't just say "well, fuck" and call it quits?

jobs being done below minimum wage by illegals are economically better than no jobs at all
Hoff
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Reply 5 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-15-06 08:48:18 PM)
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well then they lose their jobs and the businesses shut down. Its not the governments job to ensure that its people are happy. Thats life and life isnt fair. But if it were me, i would much rather lose my job then to get killed. And having the borders open are dangerous. They increase the crime rate and who knows who could enter in. The number 1 job of the government is to protect its people, and securing the border would be protecting the people.
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Reply 6 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-15-06 09:04:31 PM)
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I pretty much agree with Bush's new stance on immigration/border control...It's about damn time in my opinion. I only think he's reverting to it because he has found himself in a political sandpit, and is desperate for any popular decision. It seems to go against the majority of his policies.

He's in for a fight, too. Not only is he abandoning the pursuit latino voters he has chased for more than seven years to an extent, but he is also now going against a large conservative base that enjoys paying their illegal Mexican workers below minimum wage. They are NOT happy with anything resembling amnesty. Not to mention, Congress is not exactly 100% behind him, to say the least.


I think we should have taken measures to lock down our borders five years ago, after 9/11. How can we possibly pretend to be fighting a successful war on terrorism when any poor, uneducated fruitpicker can sneak into the country in a matter of days? Imagine how fucking easy it would be for a terrorist cell to get in.

That said, I think we ought to make obtaining citizenship a simpler affair for illegals. As long as the stream of workers coming in slows down, I have no problem granting hardworking indivduals the same protections (such as minimum wage) as any other human being under our juristiction.

Quoted from TRC:
I think the democratic response was kind of crappy. Also, I'm jumping at the prospect of getting to guard the Mexican border.
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This reply was last edited on 05-15-06 09:19:46 PM by Dante.
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Reply 7 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-15-06 09:15:52 PM)
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The long-term solution is more free trade with and development with Mexico. Its utterly unnatural that the richest country in the world would be so geographically close to a poor one, and the solution is investing in more education and opportunities in Mexico.

The short-term solution is to give those already here a path to citizenship (a lot like the one Bush laid out, pay penalties and back taxes), tighten up and actually enforce security (but the overstretched U.S. military is not the way to do it), and NOT create a guest worker program that creates an underclass of laborers and allows employers to avoid minimum wage laws.
Hoff
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Reply 8 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-15-06 09:16:06 PM)
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You boys like mexico!!?!? Woooo







...Supertroopers reference...
Bon

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Reply 9 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-15-06 09:34:29 PM)
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Someone should sum up the speech for those of us who don't watch tv.

From what I've inferred, they're tightening immigration. Ideally, the best solution would be to stop allowing immigrants in altogether, and refusing anyone citzenship.
“Was der Tod der Elf einmal bedeuten wird, vermögen heute nur wenige zu ahnen — noch weniger kann ich darüber schreiben. Wir stehen mitten in einer grossen Zeitenwende. Was wir alle durchmachen sind ihre Geburtswehen. Alles scheint negativ — und einmal wird dann doch Neues and Grosses geboren werden....”

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C
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Reply 10 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-15-06 09:50:23 PM)
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Quoted from Bon:
Someone should sum up the speech for those of us who don't watch tv.

From what I've inferred, they're tightening immigration. Ideally, the best solution would be to stop allowing immigrants in altogether, and refusing anyone citzenship.

...

You're so counter-culture. The United States is full of immigrants, to deny them entry would be denying our heritage.

Basically, Bush is going to spend a shit ton of money on border patrol, including stuff like unmanned aerial vehicles and sending the national guard to patrol the border. Something like 6,000 troops in 2-3 week intervals.
Realize that falling in love with someone is just the results of a series of generic events that can occur between you and basically anyone who meets your standards of attractiveness. It's just an emotional manifestation of a handfull of chemicals bouncing back and forth. It's not the holy grail of living, it's not your reason to exist and it's definitely not something reserved for "that one person". Accept that you are just an animal with a big brain that allows him to fret over what only amounts to a game of hormone pool. What you're feeling is not your soul dying a gurgling, ugly death, but withdrawal. All the happy chemicals that saturated your body when you were with her are kicking out cold turkey, and your body is screaming bloody murder, where are my fucking endorphins? It's just chocolate. Find a new bar.
Hoff
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Reply 11 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-15-06 09:50:30 PM)
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Quoted from Bon:
Someone should sum up the speech for those of us who don't watch tv.

From what I've inferred, they're tightening immigration. Ideally, the best solution would be to stop allowing immigrants in altogether, and refusing anyone citzenship.


Bush's plan on the issue of the borders and immigration is basically as follows. He wants to higher more border patrol and send the natinoal guard down there also to protect the border. They also plan to install more technologies such as night vision and unmanned aircraft and other silly gizmos like that to help monitor the border. He also plans to have a "guest worker" program. The plan with this is to fine the illegal immigrants and make them learn english and some other kind of penalty. Then they will become eligable to citizenship. But while this is going on, they will have a guest worker pass which enables them to work in the USA.

Many people favor his plan, many people have a problem with using the national guard and a lot of people have a problem with the guest worker program.
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Reply 12 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-15-06 09:58:46 PM)
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I watched it for about thirty seconds, during which I changed the channel back and forth from one network to another showing the same speech only lagging moments behind. I created, to the annoyance of my wife, the coolest George W. Bush techno song known to man. I call it, 'Immi-Immigration'.
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Reply 13 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-16-06 01:32:27 AM)
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Quoted from Hoff:
well then they lose their jobs and the businesses shut down. Its not the governments job to ensure that its people are happy. Thats life and life isnt fair. But if it were me, i would much rather lose my job then to get killed. And having the borders open are dangerous. They increase the crime rate and who knows who could enter in. The number 1 job of the government is to protect its people, and securing the border would be protecting the people.


For the peple, by the people.

Goddamn you have a militaristic attitude.

Don't come to scandinavia, you wouldn't like it here, because here we have programs that makes sure to help as many people and classes as possible, and our governments job is to make sure Danes have a decent living......

I hope you get some nightmare before christmas thingy, and see the life through a poor ass mexican
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Reply 14 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-16-06 05:47:45 AM)
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Quote:
Once home then they can get in line and commence the process of coming here legally.

Yeah and if they're just a little patient they'll all get in legally and it will be better for everyone!

Edit: Why would you even tell them to "get in line"?
It's not like they'll ever be let in.
They don't fit the requirements.

You and a lot of other people act like they're just sneaking in because they're immoral and not patient enough to wait for their turn.
DRAHNIER
This reply was last edited on 05-16-06 05:57:24 AM by drahnier.
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Reply 15 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-16-06 10:18:46 AM)
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True - there are many foreigners who opt to take the legal route and end up on waiting lists that are decades long. And when you're in a situation where you're waiting to be reunited with a beloved family member or you're in a war-torn environment and seeking asylum, your patience easily wears out.

I'd rather Bush focus on health care reform rather than waste precious dollars on "improved border control" that isn't really going to do anything significant.
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Reply 16 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-16-06 11:34:04 AM)
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What would YOU do to have the opportunity to make 20x more than you do currently? big grin
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[01:19] witty tirade: I'm the thin attractive one
[01:19] witty tirade: and you, the fat one, are making fun of me?
[01:19] witty tirade: no sir I do not believe it.
Hoff
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Reply 17 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-16-06 11:35:50 AM)
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Quoted from Surt:
Quoted from Hoff:
well then they lose their jobs and the businesses shut down. Its not the governments job to ensure that its people are happy. Thats life and life isnt fair. But if it were me, i would much rather lose my job then to get killed. And having the borders open are dangerous. They increase the crime rate and who knows who could enter in. The number 1 job of the government is to protect its people, and securing the border would be protecting the people.


For the peple, by the people.

Goddamn you have a militaristic attitude.

Don't come to scandinavia, you wouldn't like it here, because here we have programs that makes sure to help as many people and classes as possible, and our governments job is to make sure Danes have a decent living......

I hope you get some nightmare before christmas thingy, and see the life through a poor ass mexican


How is wanting a small government militaristic? I personally believe that the number 1 job of the government is to protect the people. It isnt the governments job to make everyone equal. It isnt the governments job to make everyone happy. If someone is successful and gets rich, it isnt the governments job to punish them and tax them higher so there can be social programs. If the rich person chooses to donate money then great, but it shouldnt be up to the government to forcfully extract the money and us it to make everyone "equal". Thats how I ideally see teh job of the government, i know there has to be exceptions. I just want as little exceptions as possible. I want the government to protect me and then stay the hell out of my life.
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Reply 18 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-16-06 11:49:15 AM)
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Quoted from Hoff:


How is wanting a small government militaristic? I personally believe that the number 1 job of the government is to protect the people. It isnt the governments job to make everyone equal. It isnt the governments job to make everyone happy. If someone is successful and gets rich, it isnt the governments job to punish them and tax them higher so there can be social programs. If the rich person chooses to donate money then great, but it shouldnt be up to the government to forcfully extract the money and us it to make everyone "equal". Thats how I ideally see teh job of the government, i know there has to be exceptions. I just want as little exceptions as possible. I want the government to protect me and then stay the hell out of my life.

Except...that's not really what you've been advocating in this thread. You've been advocating a militaristic approach to immigration control, which is not "small government" at all.
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Reply 19 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-16-06 12:01:47 PM)
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Read between the lines: small government is for us. Everybody else in the world deserves to live under a constant yoke of oversight and oppression.
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Reply 20 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-16-06 12:53:35 PM)
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Hoff, I think you've swapped what is traditionally considered a small government with a large one. Those that use "security" as their rallying point are usually the ones that are large and invasive of everything.
Adopt a leggo my eggo ifo.
[01:19] witty tirade: wait wait wait
[01:19] witty tirade: let me get this straight
[01:19] witty tirade: I'm the thin attractive one
[01:19] witty tirade: and you, the fat one, are making fun of me?
[01:19] witty tirade: no sir I do not believe it.
Hoff
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Reply 21 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-16-06 01:18:46 PM)
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Ok not really. Having security I believe is a right of the people and is the governments job to ensure that. In this case it would be to secure the borders. There are exceptions to government staying out of people's lives. And in this case, national security is one of them. I don't care what the traditional thought of a small government is, this is my thought on what a government should be for.
IF0
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Reply 22 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-16-06 01:27:51 PM)
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Your thought of what a government should be for is obviously a very conservative, controlling, and capitalistic government. None of those have ever amounted to a small government. It's irrelevant if you REALLY REALLY REALLY think a small government is best if you're simply going to use ideologies that promote large governments.

EDIT:
ALSO, GODDAMNIT, IT'S "HIRED." NOT "HIGHERED."
Adopt a leggo my eggo ifo.
[01:19] witty tirade: wait wait wait
[01:19] witty tirade: let me get this straight
[01:19] witty tirade: I'm the thin attractive one
[01:19] witty tirade: and you, the fat one, are making fun of me?
[01:19] witty tirade: no sir I do not believe it.
Hoff
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Reply 23 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-16-06 01:41:12 PM)
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How is wanting a secure border make me an advocate of large government? It doesn't. There are plenty of other issues where I just want the government to stay the hell out and stop wasting tax dollars.
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Reply 24 of 51 (Originally posted on: 05-16-06 01:57:24 PM)
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Quote:
True - there are many foreigners who opt to take the legal route and end up on waiting lists that are decades long.

And a lot will just be denied...

I mean America doesn't just give unemployed and uneducated people citizenship if they don't have special reasons (Like being refugees of war), right?
DRAHNIER
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