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Dante

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(Originally posted on: 05-11-06 05:11:31 PM)
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It makes me so mad that I'm so completely unshocked when it comes out that the Bush Administration is yet again seeking to secretly destroy civil liberties in this country...

Quoted from CNN.com:
Bush says U.S. not 'trolling through personal lives: USA Today reports NSA building massive phone records database

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush said Thursday the government is "not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans" with a reported program to create a massive database of U.S. phone calls.

"Our efforts are focused on links to al Qaeda and their known affiliates," Bush said. "The privacy of ordinary Americans is fiercely protected in all our activities."

Bush's comments came after USA Today reported Thursday that three telecommunication firms provided the National Security Agency with domestic telephone call records from tens of millions of Americans beginning shortly after the attacks on September 11, 2001.

According to the report, Qwest, a Denver-based telecommunications company, refused to cooperate with the program.

Bush did not specifically mention the newspaper's report.

In response to the USA Today article, NSA spokesman Don Weber issued a statement saying, "Given the nature of the work we do, it would be irresponsible to comment on actual or alleged operational issues; therefore, we have no information to provide.

"However, it is important to note that NSA takes its legal responsibilities seriously and operates within the law."

The report comes at an awkward time for CIA director nominee Gen. Michael Hayden, whom President Bush named this week to replace Porter Goss as head of the spy agency. Hayden, whose confirmation hearings are to begin next Thursday, headed the NSA from March 1999 to April 2005. Hayden on Thursday met with Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican whip, about his nomination.

Afterward, Hayden refused to comment about the report when meeting with reporters but said, "Everything that NSA does is lawful and very carefully done, and the appropriate members of the Congress -- both House and Senate -- are briefed on all NSA activities."

The report comes months after the Bush administration came under criticism on Capitol Hill for ordering an NSA surveillance program, that allowed communication to be monitored between people in the United States and terrorism suspects overseas without a court order.

Hayden headed the NSA when the wiretapping program was launched in the immediate aftermath of the September 11 attacks.


Lawmakers concerned

Members of Congress expressed concern Thursday about the report.

"It's our government, government of every single American -- Republican, Democrat or independent," said Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee. "... Those entrusted with great power have a duty to answer to Americans what they are doing."

In the House, Majority Leader Rep. John Boehner, R-Ohio, said, "I'm concerned about what I read with regard to the NSA database of phone calls. ... I'm not sure why it's necessary to us to keep and have that kind of information."

Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pennsylvania, said he would call on representatives from the companies named in the USA Today story; AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth; to testify.

However, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tennessee, told reporters he "strongly" agrees that the program is necessary, and said, "We'll discuss whether hearings are necessary."

In the House, Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-California, asked Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Illinois, for hearings into the program during a Thursday afternoon meeting.

Pelosi said the hearings should be conducted by the House Intelligence Committee because "those people have the clearance."

Pelosi declined to say how Hastert responded to her request.


Conservatives defend program

During a morning session, Republican members of the committee defended the legality and necessity of such a database.

The USA Today report said the program did not involve the NSA "listening to or recording conversations," a point that Sen. Jeff Sessions touched on.

"No recordings and no conversations were intercepted here, so there was no wiretapping here," the Alabama Republican said.

Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona also faulted the revelation of the program as harmful to national security.

"This is nuts," Kyl said. "We are in a war and we've go to collect intelligence on the enemy, and you can't tell the enemy in advance how you are going to do it. And discussing all of this in public leads to that."
Hayden nomination to proceed

Despite the controversy, the White House intends to go "full steam ahead" with Hayden's nomination, Reuters reported.

"I think General Hayden has had a really good start to his confirmation process. He's met with several members, the feedback is positive and we're full steam ahead on his nomination," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino told reporters while traveling with President Bush to Mississippi.

Facing Senate confirmation hearings before the Senate Intelligence Committee on May 18, Hayden's meeting today with Republican Sens. Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska were canceled.

The meeting with Santorum has been tentatively rescheduled for Tuesday afternoon, said Santorum aide Robert Traynham. "But the White House called it very tentative," Traynham said.


Investigation dropped

The Justice Department has been denied security clearances for access to information, which prompted it to drop an investigation into the domestic spying program revealed late last year by the New York Times. (Full story)

The Democrats' No. 2 member of the Senate, Sen. Richard Durbin, called the development "evidence of a cover-up."

"The fact ... that the Department of Justice has abandoned their own investigation of this administration's wrongdoing because there's been a refusal to give investigators security clearances is clear evidence of a cover-up within the administration."


I want to vomit right now. Honestly.

Between this, and the cameras popping up everywhere, including traffic lights...I see nothing but a police state in our future, if major public uproar doesn't happen soon. ARGH
This reply was last edited on 05-11-06 09:36:03 PM by Dante.
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Reply 1 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-11-06 05:15:56 PM)
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I thought it was more like they didn't record every call, but they kept records of calls made and received, for pattern purposes. I've read both versions in different places.
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Reply 2 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-11-06 06:47:02 PM)
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I guess your phone company has been working at destroying your civil liberties for years.
Dante

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Reply 3 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-11-06 09:35:35 PM)
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Quoted from Agon:
I guess your phone company has been working at destroying your civil liberties for years.
Yeah, I'm fucking pissed at them as well.

Thank you, Quest, for kicking the Feds in their well-deserving balls.
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Reply 4 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-11-06 10:09:51 PM)
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If this is true, I am in big trouble. I AM A NINJA!
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Reply 5 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-12-06 03:09:36 AM)
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I'm honestly surprised by how lightly the American people is taking this, but I fear we Europeans wouldn't take it too seriously either. It is sad times we live in.
"Hwt, he on a tid e he inne bi, ne bi hrinen mid y storme s wintres; ac t bi an eagan bryhtm and t lste fc, ac he sona of wintre on one winter eft cyme hwt r foregange, oe hwt r fylige, we ne cunnen."
"Lo, he, in the time that he is inside, is not touched by the storm of the winter, but that is an eye's winking and the least time, but he straightway comes back from winter into winter, what thereto may precede or what to it may follow, we do not know."
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Reply 6 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-12-06 05:59:23 AM)
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Quoted from Zippo:
If this is true, I am in big trouble. I AM A NINJA!



I doubt it im sure they use your calls as free sex talk.
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Dante

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Reply 7 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-12-06 07:38:53 PM)
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Quoted from Sukkit:
I'm honestly surprised by how lightly the American people is taking this, but I fear we Europeans wouldn't take it too seriously either. It is sad times we live in.
Yeah but I can understand how everyone seems to think these invasions on civil liberities are justified, you know, with the constant, daily barrage of well-organized terrorist attacks on the West and all...



...err, wait, nevermind.
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Reply 8 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-12-06 10:50:46 PM)
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Quoted from Zippo:
If this is true, I am in big trouble. I AM A NINJA!

Zippo, how could you even consider sex terrorism? ew gros
IF0
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Reply 9 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-12-06 10:51:55 PM)
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Biological terrorism with festering poon!
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Reply 10 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-12-06 11:10:17 PM)
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What do you value higher? Civil Liberties or Security?

And this whole thing does not even violate your civil liberties. The government is not listening in on your conversations. Computer programs are given phone numbers, call times, and where the calls are from. Specified patterns are looked for and when the results turn up, then the calls are looked at. Your phone sex calls are not being listened to, nor would it serve and purpose. This is not a breach of civil liberties, but a vital step to national security.

And no I don't think this operation should be made public. If you tell a criminal that you will be waiting for them at state rd, then they will not go to state rd. It should not be any more revealed then it already is.

Private Investigations are fine, and I believe that they are already are going on. But to make it Public would be insanity. Thats what I have to say.
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Reply 11 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-13-06 03:56:34 AM)
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Yes, we have to protect the american nuclear family, nothing is more important than keeping our good wholesome bible-based morals

And if my leader want's to make laws to spy on me, then i think it's ok, because he told me that it's to protect me from a boogy man
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Reply 12 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-13-06 05:52:19 AM)
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What happened to judges deciding when to check phone calls? What was wrong with that?

The potential risks of something like this are huge, especially with an administration like the current one, which defends that nothing the government does can ever be illegal.
"Hwt, he on a tid e he inne bi, ne bi hrinen mid y storme s wintres; ac t bi an eagan bryhtm and t lste fc, ac he sona of wintre on one winter eft cyme hwt r foregange, oe hwt r fylige, we ne cunnen."
"Lo, he, in the time that he is inside, is not touched by the storm of the winter, but that is an eye's winking and the least time, but he straightway comes back from winter into winter, what thereto may precede or what to it may follow, we do not know."
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Reply 13 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-13-06 08:34:10 AM)
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I've often desired the humbled feeling of having no secrets. Honestly, It would be liberating.
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Reply 14 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-13-06 08:37:57 AM)
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"Those who would sacrifice Liberty for Security deserve neither Liberty nor Security" Benjamin Franklin

I am appalled at the apathetic attitude of most Americans. All this Hype about terrorism is a farce to create an arena of fear. If enough fear is generated folks will beg to have their freedoms removed for protection. And just how do they propose to protect us? Martial Law I presume...
Watch the forth coming deliberations with Iran, and this Bird Flu crap. All that is needed to completely remove all our freedom is a "pandemic."

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. This looks alot like Germany just prior to WW2. Can anyone else see the resemblance?
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This reply was last edited on 05-13-06 08:57:29 AM by artzilla.
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Reply 15 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-13-06 07:18:43 PM)
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I guess I.. just don't care if my phone company gives my calling patterns out. Okay so.. I.. call my fiance. And my mom.. my friend Adam.. you know. I mean, out of this phone calling pattern, I suppose it doesn't bother me. It's not that interesting.
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Reply 16 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-13-06 07:36:23 PM)
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Quoted from Zippo:
If this is true, I am in big trouble. I AM A NINJA!


zippo-chan is my new samurai graduate......if anyone objects, speak now and forever rest in peace
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Reply 17 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-13-06 07:37:32 PM)
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Quoted from IF0:
I guess I.. just don't care if my phone company gives my calling patterns out. Okay so.. I.. call my fiance. And my mom.. my friend Adam.. you know. I mean, out of this phone calling pattern, I suppose it doesn't bother me. It's not that interesting.


Finally someone who can with a brain. Its relieving
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Reply 18 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-13-06 07:55:10 PM)
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Quoted from IF0:
I guess I.. just don't care if my phone company gives my calling patterns out. Okay so.. I.. call my fiance. And my mom.. my friend Adam.. you know. I mean, out of this phone calling pattern, I suppose it doesn't bother me. It's not that interesting.
It's more about what it stands for (and for what being outraged about it stands for)...

Liberties are slowly, methodically chipped away at, rather than taken in an instant.

The borders of federal control over information are currently being altered by Bush, and it's essential that people say no, and set limits NOW.
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Reply 19 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-13-06 08:07:41 PM)
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Democrats are weak on national security and would rather sacrifice american lives then to offend their out of touch base.

Although I do agree with Dante that limits of some kind need to be set. I just disagree where those limits are.
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Reply 20 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-14-06 05:43:06 AM)
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What would the founding fathers say?

probably something like: "goddamn, your a melvin, hoff"
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Reply 21 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-14-06 09:05:25 AM)
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Quoted from Hoff:
Democrats are weak on national security and would rather sacrifice american lives then to offend their out of touch base.

Interestingly enough, the comission investigating the 7/7 London bombings agreed that, no matter what means the police and Scotland Yard had had, the attacks would have been impossible to prevent anyway.

Something to think about.
"Hwt, he on a tid e he inne bi, ne bi hrinen mid y storme s wintres; ac t bi an eagan bryhtm and t lste fc, ac he sona of wintre on one winter eft cyme hwt r foregange, oe hwt r fylige, we ne cunnen."
"Lo, he, in the time that he is inside, is not touched by the storm of the winter, but that is an eye's winking and the least time, but he straightway comes back from winter into winter, what thereto may precede or what to it may follow, we do not know."
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Reply 22 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-14-06 10:03:10 AM)
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Quoted from Surt:
What would the founding fathers say?

probably something like: "goddamn, your a melvin, hoff"


Then they'd go off being drunken biggots.

The truth is that this isn't a big deal at all despite how much fun it is to hate the Bush administration.
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Reply 23 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-14-06 10:59:45 AM)
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Quoted from Surt:
What would the founding fathers say?

A more important question is: What are the funding fathers saying?
"Hwt, he on a tid e he inne bi, ne bi hrinen mid y storme s wintres; ac t bi an eagan bryhtm and t lste fc, ac he sona of wintre on one winter eft cyme hwt r foregange, oe hwt r fylige, we ne cunnen."
"Lo, he, in the time that he is inside, is not touched by the storm of the winter, but that is an eye's winking and the least time, but he straightway comes back from winter into winter, what thereto may precede or what to it may follow, we do not know."
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Reply 24 of 32 (Originally posted on: 05-14-06 01:29:29 PM)
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Quoted from Hoff:
Democrats are weak on national security and would rather sacrifice american lives then to offend their out of touch base.
Neither party has a viable solution ready for our foreign policy, or national security policy.

And both the Democratic and Republican Parties are full of idiots voting on self-interest, rather than the needs of the American People. Whoever pays for the most backrubs for Senator X will get their wishes fufilled right now. The status quo fucking sucks, which is why I think there will be turnover in this year's elections, and a more evenly spread Congress for the next two years.

Quoted from Hoff:
Although I do agree with Dante that limits of some kind need to be set. I just disagree where those limits are.
Ok...but where should the limits be? The Bush-Cheney ShowerCam?
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