Sokkit...just don't seem right?



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Bill
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Now, most of us webserver geeks have heard of a program called PHP Triad. What is does in a nutshell is it installs MySQL, PHP, and Apache in a working configuration, removing all the configuration normally done when installing the three open source web server elements. After checking this out, I realized that this guy did have a really good idea. Their isn't much to play around with when using PHPTriad, so I set out on figuring out what he used to make the install file. The install icon features a familiar llama, which we all know is the mascot for the globally loved Nullsoft, creators of Winamp, what isn't well known is the fact that Nullsoft also has several other excellent programs, while the most relevant to this discussion being NSIS (Nullsoft(SuperPiMP|Scriptable) Install System). NSIS is an open-source install system, which works through scripting.

Quote:
NSIS tries to be a scriptable win32 installer/uninstaller system that doesn't suck and isn't huge.

Back to the subject at hand, a man named "J Wynia" released this program, PHP Triad, which instantly recieved acclaim for it's creative idea, even being printed in Oreilly PHP books. A few months went by with several updates of PHPTriad, at which point "J Wynia" began asking for donations to support PHPTriad and it's continued updates. Of course, he recieved very few donations while questions in support forums grew dramatically. "J Wynia" became very frustrated with PHP Triad's users, and cut supporting it, though the downloads stayed up at sourceforge.com. Steady downloads of PHPTriad have continued, even though it wasn't being supported. Recently though, PHPGeek.com is coming back to life with talk of "J Wynia's" latest program, Sokkit. The difference between this and PHPTriad is that it is no longer free, and it will feature more user GUI's..etc. Sokkit will of course be a great tool for budding webmasters who aren't experienced enough to run UNIX or Linux systems. Now, what's wrong with this you say? I would strongly support Sokkit for the sole purpose of it bringing more people into the webmaster game, but because of the fact that he is charging money, I can't support it. Apache, PHP, and MySQL were all programmed with the basic princibal that software should be free to everyone without exception. What's keeping users like us from creating our own Sokkits? If anyone here is interested in creating a free version of this, and you have experience in php, mysql, apache, or a windows programming language such as perl or c drop me an email 1337bill@optonline.net

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antpocas
"Sex is not dating."
"If it were, Santana and I would be dating.

GLEEK

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1337bill ?
Tra la la la la la la la, la la la la laaa la la la la

But that guy is a smart. A rlly smart, in fact. And here's a better idea: WHY SHOULD I PAY FOR SOMETHING I CAN INSTALL FOR FREE RIGHT NOW ?
But that guy IS a smart. And the thing that's keeping us from making our own Sokkits are programming skills and lazyness.

If you can read this, you need another beer. If you can't, you need some glasses.

This reply was last edited on 12-24-03 07:14:31 AM by antpocas.

Bill
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Quote:
WHY SHOULD I PAY FOR SOMETHING I CAN INSTALL FOR FREE RIGHT NOW ?

Gee! You've really stumbled onto something there!..that was the point of the thread...and you don't need cra-z programming to do this..I'm sure visual basic knowledge alone would be enough to make our own free "sokkit".

and yes, my email is 1337bill.

Everything that you could never say
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I took a hammer and two nails to my eardrums long ago-Alkaline Trio

Mingan
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visual basic is enough. I could do it. but I won't.

there is no need to reinvent the wheel, if people are too stupid to install those programs normally they shouldn't do it at all, it doesn't even take 5 minutes of your time.

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LetterJ

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I'm the author of Sokkit and thought I'd take a few minutes to clarify a few things. I'll refrain from any ad hominem attacks, a courtesy that wasn't extended to me.

I've heard over and over the tired refrain that Apache, PHP and MySQL "were all programmed with the basic princibal[sic] that software should be free to everyone without exception". After all, it's a nice ideal, right? The simple truth is that that statement is false. The Apache and PHP licenses were modelled on the BSD and MIT licenses. While those licenses guarantee that there will be *some* version of those 2 applications available for free, it makes no restriction on derivitive products collecting revenue from the sale of those derivitive products. This is important to notice because that permission is specifically granted by those licenses. Had they not included that permission, it would not exist. So, the REAL intent of the licenses on those projects is to allow ANYONE to use it: commercial or otherwise. That's why Apache is included in Covalent's package and in IBM's Websphere suite (check out the price for THAT). Are you protesting the Linux distributions that are only available on CD for >$100? After all, they include all this same software and a lot more "free" software.

As for MySQL (which isn't included in the package that I'm charging for, but is provided as a free module), you apparently don't remember a time a few years back when MySQL for Windows not only wasn't under GPL, but was under a non-commercial freeware license. As in, they were distributing it PRIMARILY for money. Only recently did the Windows port fall under any sort of Open Source license.

Why should you pay for it? If you don't have any problems installing the components yourself, don't. I don't care. Really, I don't. I'm not trying to force anyone to pay for anything. However, experience has dictated that the people who are most interested in Sokkit couldn't install Apache/PHP/MySQL in 5 minutes (and it actually takes closer to 10 as a minimum anyway). Rather, they are the users floundering in forums for days and even *weeks* unable to get it running and getting nowhere on the instructions of others. For $20, I'm offering a solution. And, at $20, I'm paying for my time to support them.

PHPTriad had over 1 million users. And, in the 2 years that the project was active, I received less than $200 in donations. I watched numerous people offer to help out only to disappear a month later. After I shut it down, I received requests from users to bring it back. So, I brought it back the only way that made it worthwhile.

If you want to make your own distribution, go ahead. I've told more than one person who attacked my decision to do just that. Nothing's stopping you. THAT's the point of those licenses. You aren't required to buy my package. You can go back to the originals and build your own. THAT's the real freedom that those licenses give you. And, you can even charge for it if you want. Really. Read the licenses.

BTW, what's up with putting my name in quotes through the whole article?

antpocas
"Sex is not dating."
"If it were, Santana and I would be dating.

GLEEK

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How about this. You release the PREVIOUS version of Sokkit with no free support, for free.
What do you think?

If you can read this, you need another beer. If you can't, you need some glasses.

LetterJ

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The previous version (PHPTriad 2.11 and 2.2alpha) has never been withdrawn, is still available and is downloaded 1000+ times per day. I turn away at least 10 support requests for that free version per day. http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/phptriad.

asthetik
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making jabs at each other is what the internet is for you fucking idiots. oh, and for stealing things.

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Did you come here just to defend your program? Wow.

flaming arrow
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I have to say, I don't know crap about MYSql or PHP or anything, but this man has a air-tight defense. And he just owned the hell out of two people with ease. Sir, I commend you. *stands and applauds*

I really can't stand people who complain about things costing money. Sure, it sucks, but it's needed. Everything can't be free. Get a job, pay the twenty dollars. And hey, he said PHPTriad was still available for free download. So, what's the problem? And Bill, Antpocas, I'd reccomend you guys not instigate any further confrontation with this man. He clearly knows what he's talking about, and he did it in a calm, mature manner. Amazing.

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antpocas
"Sex is not dating."
"If it were, Santana and I would be dating.

GLEEK

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Quoted from LetterJ:
The previous version (PHPTriad 2.11 and 2.2alpha) has never been withdrawn, is still available and is downloaded 1000+ times per day. I turn away at least 10 support requests for that free version per day. http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/phptriad./q]
Sorry if I misunderstood you, but
[q=PHPGeek.com]2002-11-17 - Sokkit 3.0 for NT/2K/XP Released

I understood that Sokkit started from 1.0, but it seems it didn't.

HEY LOOK THIS POST WAS TOTALLY DISREGARDED AS A SHITTY DEFENSE BY SOME PEOPLE! EXCWPT I WAS TELLING THE TRUTH!

If you can read this, you need another beer. If you can't, you need some glasses.

This reply was last edited on 12-24-03 07:16:27 AM by antpocas.

LetterJ

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PHPTriad and Sokkit are the same product with a rename after version 2.2 and before version 3.0. The PHPTriad name is technically in violation of the PHP license and I renamed the product to be in better compliance with all of the involved licenses. So PHPTriad 2.11 and 2.2 ARE the previous versions of Sokkit under it's old name.

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Zan-beef

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Great Replies, LetterJ.

I just wanted to point out:

Quote:
The install icon features a familiar llama, which we all know is the mascot for the globally loved Nullsoft, creators of Winamp,

...Also the Icon for Simcity, The "Deli Llama," "The laughing Llama," The Legion of Llamas, The Inland Northwest Llama Association, and countless others. Really, how does a Llama have any logical point within the initial discussion?

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OR

We could all remove the penises from my mouths and my fiery anal region, download

-Apache
-ActivePERL
-MySQL
-PHP

And configure it all ourselves.

So, yay

This reply was last edited on 12-24-03 07:17:32 AM by antpocas.

antpocas
"Sex is not dating."
"If it were, Santana and I would be dating.

GLEEK

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Quoted from Sunshine:
Great Replies, LetterJ.

I just wanted to point out:

Quote:
The install icon features a familiar llama, which we all know is the mascot for the globally loved Nullsoft, creators of Winamp,

...Also the Icon for Simcity

Or any other Sim Game. The llama is the Maxis' mascot, in case no one here besides myslef knows.

If you can read this, you need another beer. If you can't, you need some glasses.

MeltedMonitor

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I found this page while trying to find a support forum for sokkit.

Unfortunately, I am the type of person that would have probably downloaded the free version and used it to death without sending in a nickel. On the other hand, I am also the person that just dropped $20 happily to avoid having to learn how to install and maintain linux. (Not that it would be a bad thing, but I don't have time)

I have been researching linux for a while, trying to determine which version is the best, and configuring my machine, and trying to learn the basics... but then I discovered sokkit. I am going to run one website from the box on my DLS connection to see how well it works.

The install went easy and I have a working server running on an extra Windows XP box. It literally installed in ten minutes without any hitches. That includes the CGI and SQL addons.

I'm not saying that anyone that has the skills to run a linux box and http server should drop $20 for something they don't need, but they are saving my ass!

Thanks!

Darren
www.meltedmonitor.com

Pascal
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Damn, I'm impressed.

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I must agree that LetterJ just owned the hell out of two people, as FA said. However, I think antpocas and Ivan were slightly misunderstood.

Quote:
I've heard over and over the tired refrain that Apache, PHP and MySQL "were all programmed with the basic princibal[sic] that software should be free to everyone without exception". After all, it's a nice ideal, right? The simple truth is that that statement is false. The Apache and PHP licenses were modelled on the BSD and MIT licenses. While those licenses guarantee that there will be *some* version of those 2 applications available for free, it makes no restriction on derivitive products collecting revenue from the sale of those derivitive products. This is important to notice because that permission is specifically granted by those licenses. Had they not included that permission, it would not exist. So, the REAL intent of the licenses on those projects is to allow ANYONE to use it: commercial or otherwise. That's why Apache is included in Covalent's package and in IBM's Websphere suite (check out the price for THAT). Are you protesting the Linux distributions that are only available on CD for >$100? After all, they include all this same software and a lot more "free" software.

Thankfully you posted this first; I was about to point this out.

However, I think what Ivan was trying to say was, "Sure you can do that, but it's not like it's really going to be worth it when all that stuff is free, so why not make our own open-source installer for this and make this one free so we can save other people a jackpot of money?"

Oh, and LetterJ, I see you registered in Dec. 2002. Weird.

MeltedMonitor, Linux is still overall better for a public server. In case you didn't know, it is strongly advised by the Apache project not to use Apache on Windows for production servers(in other words, for a server that you publicly advertise and let other people see).

Installing Mandrake/Red Hat Linux is a breeze. You can install the GUI, but you don't have to use it except for when you need it. When you're done with it, you close the GUI and launch Apache and MySQL(you will install PHP as a module, right? Bah, it's a moot point anyway).

Anyway, I find installing the three programs by myself to be much more easier. Hey, I did it on both Windows and Linux. :p

Btw, LetterJ, do PHPTriad/Sokkit install PHP as a module or as a CGI program? This could be a niche for Ivan Drago's proposed project.

antpocas
"Sex is not dating."
"If it were, Santana and I would be dating.

GLEEK

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Why the FUCK was this thread topped?
http://www.hotscripts.com/PHP/Software_and_Servers/Installation_Kits/index.html

Bill
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For the love of God, let Bessy go down in peace.

Oh yeah, and FreeBSD pwns Linux's sorry ass. I'd have picked it if it wasn't for the fact that it supports even fewer apps than Linux, and doesn't have a GUI(one that's easy to find, anyway).-King of Suck
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