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Ztolk
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(Originally posted on: 11-07-12 03:11:51 PM)
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I imagine most of us are pretty pleased at that. Florida still doesn't have its shit together.
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Reply 1 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-07-12 03:41:18 PM)
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Anyone surprised? At no point in the past 4 years has it looked like the Republicans had a good chance to replace him.

Not saying he was so excellent that no one could oppose him (as a matter of fact i'm severely disappointed at how little legitimate criticism has been sent his way [hint: 'He's a secret muslim and a socialist!' doesn't count]), just that the Republicans never really posed any kind of reasonable threat to his reelection.
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Reply 2 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-07-12 04:28:51 PM)
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Most interesting aspect of this elections: The public's elevation of Nate Silver to demigod status.
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Reply 3 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-10-12 01:32:57 AM)
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How about the the GOP's continued transformation into a petty regional party and ever diminishing significance?
Muzta
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Reply 4 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-10-12 08:51:37 AM)
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Quoted from lesbian dickwars:
How about the the GOP's continued transformation into a petty regional party and ever diminishing significance?


Saying that over and over doesn't actually mean it's happening
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Reply 5 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-11-12 10:42:19 PM)
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shut up mutza, go watch some FOX "news"
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Reply 6 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-11-12 10:50:12 PM)
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Quoted from Muzta:
Quoted from lesbian dickwars:
How about the the GOP's continued transformation into a petty regional party and ever diminishing significance?


Saying that over and over doesn't actually mean it's happening


Actually I see it happening here where I live on a grassroots level. It's kind of exciting (for a liberal).
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Reply 7 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-13-12 02:41:57 PM)
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I mean I'm no expert but

2008 45.7%
2012 48%

So the following graph may have a small sample size and a large margin of error but all things considered


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Reply 8 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-13-12 04:07:51 PM)
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OTOH they still lost.
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Reply 9 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-13-12 05:26:20 PM)
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Absolutely, it's hard to make absolute defeat look like a victory

But consecutive presidential defeats does not mean the doom of party
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Reply 10 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-13-12 06:51:58 PM)
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They lost to a president who's performance I consider admirable given the circumstances but who, ultimately, wouldn't have won a second term against a competent candidate.
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Reply 11 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-13-12 06:53:41 PM)
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Ima coin the term "John Kerry Candidate" for this phenomenon. As in "Mitt Romney was such a John Kerry Candidate it's not even funny.
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Reply 12 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-13-12 07:24:26 PM)
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It's true, but the GOP has a very shallow of pool of candidates at the moment

I actually think Romney lost because of the primary

the republicans will have to stand the ends of the party before the next election
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Reply 13 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-14-12 01:50:00 AM)
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John Kerry candidate? More like Bob Dole candidate.


Seriously though, when parties put out junk candidates like Dole, Kerry, Romney, I wonder if they're not purposefully holding back a stud for when they think victory will be easier. I don't like Obama, but I definitely disagree with Nick when he says any competent candidate would have beaten him.
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Reply 14 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-14-12 02:36:32 PM)
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I was kind-of confused how surprised people were that he won. I had been (unhappily) thinking he would get it hands down the entire time. Then I remembered the bubble which continues to hurt the Republicans more and more. If only Mitt had a bit(alot on second thought) more substance to his campaign and a lot less bullshit. That was the most frustrating thing for everyone; how dumb he thought the American people are. That was the Reps problem the entire campaign, that and the blatant perversion of conservatism into a new moralism that has been growing steadily worse since ~2000. All election night the friends I was with kept saying 'maybe Obama,' as in: maybe Obama would be the progressive this country needs and bring us out of the murky waters we've been swimming in since the decline of the American left in 1968(McGovern in '72 was maybe the last race the democrats ran a progressive in and that was a primary fluke). His stance on the even bigger increase on corporate + extreme upperclass taxes was nice to read about and there is no way they aren't going back to at least pre-Bush tax rates even if it takes a while for the Reps to give(ie compromise from a reasonable position).

Looking at the numbers though I think a decent Republican candidate would have beaten him. That is to say not a moralist but someone like Mark Rubio or Bobby Jindal(dem ethnics) on the ticket would've helped Mitt a shit ton. That and/or not being such a lying scum bag and laying out actual reasons why the conservative approach to the problems the United States faces would be better he could've captured the youth vote which I believe contributed a lot more to the outcome than anyone was expecting(again).

As a strong supporter of the opening up of United States politics to more parties do any of you have any hypothesii on why there aren't more green, libertarian, socialist, etc candidates that run for state and congressional offices? If the senate has just five or six independent candidates that'd still effect the outcomes of bills.

Also, to California residents(et al): I don't quite understand why the proposition for the labeling of gmo food didn't pass(was it 36?) anyone care to enlighten me?

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Reply 15 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-14-12 04:55:30 PM)
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Quoted from forum raping FAGGOT:
John Kerry candidate? More like Bob Dole candidate.


Seriously though, when parties put out junk candidates like Dole, Kerry, Romney, I wonder if they're not purposefully holding back a stud for when they think victory will be easier. I don't like Obama, but I definitely disagree with Nick when he says any competent candidate would have beaten him.


It's a tough call because IMO Obama is the most brilliant speaker in American politics right now and he had Bill Clinton working with him (the most brilliant politician in American politics in at least the last twenty years) but the economy is against him, the congress has made things especially difficult and to top it all off, he's not really liberal enough to satisfy someone like me while simultaneously being (apparently!) a socialist kenyan muslim class warrior.

I think the Republican party underestimated him big time. I also think that Romney was a terrible candidate. I forgot about Dole but the comparison is probably fairly apt. Romney was wallpaper. The guy just has no personality besides "White rich guy".
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Reply 16 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-14-12 11:27:00 PM)
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Yes, the economy is bad and usually that hurts the incumbent party, but this is sort of a unique situation because it's part of popular consensus that the reason the economy is bad is mostly because of George Bush. Not everybody subscribes to that, obviously, but it's certainly a part of the mainstream "knowledge" and you don't need to be a liberal to believe it. It's a popular story floating out there in the ether.

Not being liberal enough hardly hurt him at all. There was no liberal threat to his power, any time someone complained about Obama on things like civil liberties or the national security state, they were washed out with a chorus of "DO YOU WANT MITT ROMNEY TO WIN????" Less than 2% voted for a third party in this election and most of them were for Libertarian Gary Johnson. "Liberals" (god I hate using these words) have a lot in common with Gary Johnson, so i'm sure many of his votes came from them, but there were other more "liberal" third party candidates on the ballots out there. If a significant portion of liberals wanted to make their voice heard and tell Obama that they would not stand for some of his shit, they could have, and they didn't.

I'd bet people who refuse to vote for a black guy or someone who might be a muslim cost Obama more votes than did liberals who refuse to vote for a guy that shits all over things like "due process" or "accountability."
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Reply 17 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-14-12 11:37:48 PM)
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Quote:
As a strong supporter of the opening up of United States politics to more parties do any of you have any hypothesii on why there aren't more green, libertarian, socialist, etc candidates that run for state and congressional offices? If the senate has just five or six independent candidates that'd still effect the outcomes of bills.


They run, but it's hard to compete with the big boys. And by the big boys, I mean those guys who have hundreds of thousands of corporate dollars that are funneled into their campaigns.
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Reply 18 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-15-12 01:01:27 AM)
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Quoted from forum raping FAGGOT:
Quote:
As a strong supporter of the opening up of United States politics to more parties do any of you have any hypothesii on why there aren't more green, libertarian, socialist, etc candidates that run for state and congressional offices? If the senate has just five or six independent candidates that'd still effect the outcomes of bills.


They run, but it's hard to compete with the big boys. And by the big boys, I mean those guys who have hundreds of thousands of corporate dollars that are funneled into their campaigns.


Let's be honest here; even if a third-party candidate did win the election, how would he, as a third-party lip-syncher, ever hope to get cooperation from congress on getting any of his policies passed? At best, the current set up allows at least the most moderate policies to make it through the legislature before they find themselves on the president desk.

...

This government is highly inefficient in even its most basic functions of defense, law, and regulation. Democracy has never at any point in history allowed for "good" government, much less efficient government in any sense of the word. The current morass we call US Government is the culmination of a bloated bureaucracy borne out of WW2 to fight, first, a resurgent Germany and then maintained to fend off another war baby called the Soviet Union.

Lucky for our leaders, nobody is around to remember the times before WW2 where the federal government exercised only modest control over state legislatures and policy makers. Where social policy was a dictate of locally elected leaders and so-called social welfare was still a burden of churches and do-gooders. Democrats and Republicans are either side of the same coin; where one supports slightly more or perhaps a little less government intrusion, they both are raising the bar year after year on the amount of government regulation they deem necessary for your safety and prosperity. Remember, the bureaucracy is always expanding to accommodate the expanding bureaucracy.
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Reply 19 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-15-12 11:03:25 AM)
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Ron Paul said a lot of these things. Shut him down pretty aggressively.
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Reply 20 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-15-12 03:17:22 PM)
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Ron Paul also said a lot of batshit insane things.

Also, the third party issue can be summed up as: A first-past-the-post voting scheme inevitably tends toward a two-party system.
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Reply 21 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-15-12 04:05:09 PM)
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For sure, but I do get very annoyed with people who ignore the tends toward part of that and yell at you about how everything is hopeless and we should all just give up caring about anything. I'm not saying anybody here said that, but I do hear it a lot.
Muzta
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Reply 22 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-15-12 06:28:30 PM)
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It's true though. There hasn't been a relevant third part in a hundred years.

It's certainly possible that a small third party might arise in the house, but ultimately if you want more parties I would think you need a parliamentary system.
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Reply 23 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-15-12 08:41:04 PM)
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Proportional representation would also go a long way. First past the post is an awful system.

edit: Which was basically just said. Oops.
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Reply 24 of 43 (Originally posted on: 11-15-12 09:18:39 PM)
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Quote:
It's true though. There hasn't been a relevant third part in a hundred years.


Lack of proof is not evidence against something.

What is more likely, that people will vote for a third party, or that the two-party system will change the voting process which keeps their power so solid?

Neither is likely, but neither is impossible. Certainly the latter is not significantly more plausible than the former.
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