Inquiry on Lance Armstrong Ends With No Charges



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Muzta
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/04/sports/cycling/federal-prosecutors-drop-lance-armstrong-investigation.html

Not that I like Lance Armstrong or cycling....I just like to see french people unhappy

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Pertti Susilainen
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Armstrong is evil and this is a disgrace. Oh well. Hopefully USADA will still get him. Easier to deal with sports infractions than with federal crime.

Make no mistake, the guy's guilty.

And this doesn't just piss off the French. It pisses off many Americans who actually know how cycling works (a significant number of whom were personally bullied by Armstrong himself).

Zippo: oh man you are a genius

Muzta
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I read an article once where they were complaining that Armstrong had cheated everyone who had bought a live strong bracelet and I thought "wow, that is retarded"

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Pertti Susilainen
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http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7539289/end-lance-armstrong-federal-investigation-raises-questions

Quote:
Sources, legal and otherwise, who were not directly connected to the investigation, said it was still actively producing new leads and they had expected indictments this spring. Several witnesses who testified before the federal grand jury in Los Angeles or spoke to investigators said they were stunned by the news. Other sources close to the case said investigators had described their evidence against Armstrong as being the strongest of any of the government's doping-related cases. And another person who has not testified, and who spoke only on the condition of anonymity, described having a meeting scheduled with lead investigator Jeff Novitzky next week.

However, as the U.S. Attorney for the Central District of California, where the grand jury was empaneled, Birotte had the authority to close the investigation unilaterally, without asking the grand jury whether indictments were warranted, if he concluded that there was insufficient evidence that a federal crime had been committed in his jurisdiction.

Pfffffff.

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Ztolk
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Isn't it the case that everyone in top level biking is doping, and Armstrong was still better than everyone else?

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Quoted from Ztolk:
Isn't it the case that everyone in top level biking is doping, and Armstrong was still better than everyone else?

This is basically my understanding. Even the "average" competitors are doing all kinds of tricks to alter their energy levels and ability, drugs or no. That said, it doesn't make it anymore right to say "No, he was never doping."

how is this for a quote

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Quoted from Sukkit:
Armstrong is evil and this is a disgrace. Oh well. Hopefully USADA will still get him. Easier to deal with sports infractions than with federal crime.

Make no mistake, the guy's guilty.

And this doesn't just piss off the French. It pisses off many Americans who actually know how cycling works (a significant number of whom were personally bullied by Armstrong himself).

Honestly, who cares? Of the million and one problems facing the western world, does this one really warrant much controversy?

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

Pertti Susilainen
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By that logic, let's never deal with anything until we eliminate world hunger. Yeah demagogy! The authorities charged with investigating Armstrong weren't in charge of fixing other problems of the Western world. It was about tax fraud and public health, and for the authorities that have to deal with tax fraud and public health I imagine there are few things more important than tax fraud and public health.

Quote:
Isn't it the case that everyone in top level biking is doping, and Armstrong was still better than everyone else?

It's not that simple. Widespread doping doesn't imply a level playing field at all. You have anything from the humble pro in a small team that buys his own EPO through the internet and does what his older colleagues recommend him to do, to the big World Tour teams with systemaic team-wide doping programs designed and monitored by the best doping doctors. Do you think in both cases doping will give you the same benefits?

Armstrong didn't just dope. He was the client of the very best doping doctor, Michele Ferrari, who only worked for Armstrong and his teammates. There was no level playing field.

Besides, Armstrong wasn't your regular athlete who just did what he had to do to compete. He bullied and abused others who were trying to clean up the sport. Look up Filippo Simeoni, Christophe Bassons or Betsy Andreu for a start.

And on top of that, the majority of Armstrong's direct rivals were caught and paid the price.

Zippo: oh man you are a genius

Muzta
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Quote:
Besides, Armstrong wasn't your regular athlete who just did what he had to do to compete. He bullied and abused others who were trying to clean up the sport. Look up Filippo Simeoni, Christophe Bassons or Betsy Andreu for a start.

This names sound a little too French and Italian for me to feel bad a bout it.

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dude only has one nut. fyi

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I feel like cycling is too fucked up to care about. Needs a reboot.

Also, why are we still hating French people? I find it embarrassing that it's still cool for Americans to arbitrarily hate France. I've made it a habit to always call people out on it and ask why they care, and i've yet to hear a good answer. It's usually "my friend went there and said they were all very rude."

Muzta
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That's a complicated question with multiple answers

Let's start at the beginning

I grew up surrounded by French-Canadians of the New Brunswick variety, and I think any one with experience can tell you that would naturally leave a person with a negative perspective on both the French and Canadians. They are aloof and dickish, and every weekend they would invade the local Wal-Mart. Furthermore there's a proud family tradition of hate, My Lutheran Great-Great Grandparents migrated from Denmark to New Brunswick around the turn of the century and we've been hating the surrounding French-Catholic for over 100 years. While I'm not religious by any means, I know enough of the Catholic church's checkered history to remain true to my Lutheran roots.

Finally, Europe has become very vogue in American counter-culture, and that just bugs the shit out of me

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Pertti Susilainen
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Cycling is too fucked up to care about? But Dimi, you like football.

Quoted from Muzta:
This names sound a little too French and Italian for me to feel bad a bout it.

Then look up Mike Anderson, Greg LeMond (he's American FYI), Frankie Andreu and I wish I could remmeber the name of this woman who was part of Armstrong's entourage for a while and who was also bullied. You'll probably stumble upon her if you read a bit about Armstrong's previous encounters with the law.

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Greece and Turkey have been pissing each other off for the last ten thousand years, but I don't groan every time someone mentions Turkey. People who do are part of the reason endless grudges never end.

The other part of your argument doesn't work for me either. I grew up surrounded by black people of the Philadelphian variety, and I can name things you see black people here doing that would be unanimously considered bad. I don't think that makes it cool for me to go around saying I hate black people.

And finally, your last point is pretty hilarious. Yes, that's annoying, but what has probably become even more prevalent is arbitrarily hating Europe as what you might call American counter-counter-culture. Now that really bugs the shit out of me. And really when it comes down to it i'd rather hang out with someone who loves things for no reason instead of someone who hates things for no reason.

Sukkit: I'm gonna back out of this one by admitting i'm outrageously ignorant to basically everything about cycling. Sorry to poop on something you enjoy.

Muzta
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Quote:
The other part of your argument doesn't work for me either. I grew up surrounded by black people of the Philadelphian variety, and I can name things you see black people here doing that would be unanimously considered bad. I don't think that makes it cool for me to go around saying I hate black people.

Equating general distaste for a culture to outright racism seems like a reach

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I disagree completely. What is racism anyway? It's become such a powerful word that people throw around everywhere as this vague but terrible thing.

Really the only real definition I can come up with is just distinguishing people of different races as inherently different. It doesn't necessarily imply anything about discrimination or even hatred really.

So I don't really see what the difference is between going "Ugh, I hate black people. And I see them everywhere, so I know what i'm talking about," and saying the same thing about French-Canadians. The former is more demonized because you can say "Well hey, that's racist!" and everyone knows racism is evil, ergo, it's an evil thing to say.

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Quoted from It Wasn't Me:
Sukkit: I'm gonna back out of this one by admitting i'm outrageously ignorant to basically everything about cycling. Sorry to poop on something you enjoy.

Oh, don't worry. I didn't react because you said cycling needed a reboot - I agree with you there. Cycling is rotten to the core, and the international federeation needs to go. In fact, had this investigation not been cancelled (for no good reason as far as I can tell), chances are the UCI (International Cycling Union) would have gone effectively destroyed, because they protected Armstrong and took bribes from him.

But most other sports are worse than cycling, I'd say. In terms of awareness and anti-doping measures, football is roughly where cycling was some 20 years ago.

Zippo: oh man you are a genius

Muzta
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Quoted from It Wasn't Me:
I disagree completely. What is racism anyway? It's become such a powerful word that people throw around everywhere as this vague but terrible thing.

Really the only real definition I can come up with is just distinguishing people of different races as inherently different. It doesn't necessarily imply anything about discrimination or even hatred really.

So I don't really see what the difference is between going "Ugh, I hate black people. And I see them everywhere, so I know what i'm talking about," and saying the same thing about French-Canadians. The former is more demonized because you can say "Well hey, that's racist!" and everyone knows racism is evil, ergo, it's an evil thing to say.

The difference is that in one case your judging some one solely on the basis of a genetic trait over which they have no control, in the other case I'm judging people on the choices that they make.

"Nice guys finish last, then we sleep in" - Duk's Sig

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Quoted from Muzta:
Quoted from It Wasn't Me:
I disagree completely. What is racism anyway? It's become such a powerful word that people throw around everywhere as this vague but terrible thing.

Really the only real definition I can come up with is just distinguishing people of different races as inherently different. It doesn't necessarily imply anything about discrimination or even hatred really.

So I don't really see what the difference is between going "Ugh, I hate black people. And I see them everywhere, so I know what i'm talking about," and saying the same thing about French-Canadians. The former is more demonized because you can say "Well hey, that's racist!" and everyone knows racism is evil, ergo, it's an evil thing to say.

The difference is that in one case your judging some one solely on the basis of a genetic trait over which they have no control, in the other case I'm judging people on the choices that they make.

Is cultural affiliation a choice you make?

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

Muzta
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Yeah, it's the difference between being a "French Canadian" and being a "Canadian" with silent T's in your last name

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Guy Tuttle and Ass
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Mutza are seriously trying to justify a blanket judgement of an entire population?

Guy Tuttle and Ass
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also LOL @ getting mad about Canadians invading Walmart

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Quoted from Muzta:
Yeah, it's the difference between being a "French Canadian" and being a "Canadian" with silent T's in your last name

"

On that line, would you object to people calling themselves "Pakistani Canadian" or any of the other hyphenated varieties?

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

Muzta
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Quoted from oirassiv:
Quoted from Muzta:
Yeah, it's the difference between being a "French Canadian" and being a "Canadian" with silent T's in your last name
"

On that line, would you object to people calling themselves "Pakistani Canadian" or any of the other hyphenated varieties?

Yes, and I do

Quote:
Mutza are seriously trying to justify a blanket judgement of an entire population?

How do you feel about the state of Texas and the people that live there?

"Nice guys finish last, then we sleep in" - Duk's Sig

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If that is the truth, we share a lot more in common than you might think Muzta.

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

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