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Guy Tuttle and Ass
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(Originally posted on: 05-31-10 08:06:57 AM)
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Quote:
Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet

Al Jazeera's report on board the Mavi Marmara before communications were cut

Israeli forces have attacked a flotilla of aid-carrying ships aiming to break the country's siege on Gaza.

At least 19 people were killed and dozens injured when troops intercepted the convoy of ships dubbed the Freedom Flotilla early on Monday, Israeli radio reported.

The flotilla was attacked in international waters, 65km off the Gaza coast.


aljazeera link to make vissario angry

So this is pretty unarguably evil. I'm basically posting this to see who will try to defend attacking humanitarian aid-carrying civilians with assault weapons in international waters.
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Reply 1 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 08:45:25 AM)
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It's like gross militant overreaction has become a staple of Israel's foreign policy.

It's almost not even news.

edit: I think it should also be noted that when you ignore hails from a foreign navy, thats pretty much the universal sign for "please blow me the fuck out of the water."
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This reply was last edited on 05-31-10 09:10:45 AM by ba.
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Reply 2 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 09:24:32 AM)
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I read about the Freedom Flotilla on Al-Jazeera (lol) yesterday, and I was so hoping Israel wouldn't follow through with their threat to intercept the boats. I'd be curious to see what would measures Israel would take if the USNS Comfort were sent to the Gaza Strip. To use deadly force on aid ships is reprehensible, no matter who they're helping.
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Guy Tuttle and Ass
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Reply 3 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 09:46:16 AM)
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Quoted from ba:
It's like gross militant overreaction has become a staple of Israel's foreign policy.

It's almost not even news.

edit: I think it should also be noted that when you ignore hails from a foreign navy, thats pretty much the universal sign for "please blow me the fuck out of the water."
um, not in international waters, sorry
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Reply 4 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 09:46:39 AM)
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The previous to posts sum up my opinion pretty well.

However, I'm not shocked by any means, and neither should anyone else since Israel explicitly stated they would intercept them.
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Reply 5 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 09:49:27 AM)
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Intercepting is pretty different from killing 20 people though, don't you think?
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Reply 6 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 09:58:26 AM)
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Quoted from ice:
Intercepting is pretty different from killing 20 people though, don't you think?



I'd say that kind of depends

If they intercepted the ships put people on their knees and then shot them in the head I'd say that was an interception followed by mass murder.

If they boarded the ships and responded to people throwing shit by firing upon them I'd call it a gross overreaction (They "Israel-ed" it)

If they boarded the ship and some one was mistakenly shot triggering an exchange of small arms fire that left 20 dead I'd say they Ruby Ridged it
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Reply 7 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 10:39:43 AM)
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Wait so xenophobic nationalism and blatantly aggressive militarism aren't always the answers to every problem?



hm...
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Reply 8 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 10:51:38 AM)
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Israel is now defending the response by claiming that the activists attacked the Israeli commandos with knives, clubs, etc., inciting the violence, while also claiming that they belong to terrorist organizations.
Quote:
"Israel was totally within its rights under international law to intercept the ship and to take it to the port of Ashdod," he told Al Jazeera.

"Unfortunately they were met by the activists on the boats with deadly violence, knives, metal clubs, even live fire on our service people. They initiated the violence."

He said the people on board the flotilla were not peaceful activists.

"They are part of the IHH, which is a radical Turkish Islamist organisation which has been investigated by Western governments and by the Turkish government itself in the past for their links with terrorist organisations."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/05/201053113252437484.html
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Reply 9 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 11:05:34 AM)
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Quoted from Muzta:

If they intercepted the ships
Here's the thing man, the attack happened in international waters. The ships hadn't broken the blockade yet, they hadn't come close to it. In this case the IDF is legally indistinguishable from somali pirates
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Reply 10 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 11:15:35 AM)
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Quote:
Wait so xenophobic nationalism and blatantly aggressive militarism aren't always the answers to every problem?



Say you have an ant hill in your back yard. Now, ants being ants, they aren't something you want crawling around on your lawn. So, in response, you dump cyanide on the mound and wait for them to die off.

Suppose for a moment that a new stream of ants is coming in to replace the ones that are dying. You now have the choice of stopping the flow or letting the newbies in. What would you do?
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Guy Tuttle and Ass
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Reply 11 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 11:16:59 AM)
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after like 45 minutes of idling in this thread that's the weak shit you come up with?
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Reply 12 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 11:19:04 AM)
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This just in. Palestinians are ants.


In other news, there is a video of some of the violence posted on BBC showing a clash between the Israeli commandos and some of the civilians on board the ship. You can clearly distinguish the civilians because of their bright orange vests. The clip definitely shows some of them brandishing clubs and chairs. Whether people like it or not, this certainly at least adds some credibility to the story that civilians instigated the clash. However, that doesn't in any way address the issue of using deadly force in response. Nor does it address the preemptive nature of the commandos being placed on the ships in international waters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm
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Reply 13 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 11:20:32 AM)
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Quote:
adds some credibility to the story that civilians instigated the clash.


They were defending their ship from what amounts to pirates attempting to illegally capture it. The soldiers had no right to be there.

for more content:

IDF releases video of horrible terrorist weaponry (not for the faint of heart)
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Reply 14 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 11:24:11 AM)
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If you read my post, I'm not justifying their presence in the first place, I'm saying that it's unlikely that the Israeli commandos landed on the ships and opened fired with impunity without provocation. All I'm saying is that the stories that the activists responded to the commando presence violently is at least in some way substantiated. Whether or not the commandos should have been there in the first place is a completely separate story altogether.
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Reply 15 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 11:28:36 AM)
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I don't really think it's that separate. If you attack someone breaking into your home vs. attack someone on the sidewalk saying he's going to break into your home, those are different situations and should be judged differently. (Nevermind that it's not your home but rather your neighbor's house within which you've illegally imprisoned him)

But I guess I missed the last sentence of your post. I still think it drastically changes how the events should be interpreted.

edit: but I can see we are largely in agreement anyway
This reply was last edited on 05-31-10 11:39:36 AM by Guy Tuttle and Ass.
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Reply 16 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 11:42:00 AM)
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I certainly agree. However, it seems the prudent thing for the activists to do in this situation would have been to not escalate the violence in the first place, whether or not they were justified in defending themselves (spoiler alert: they were). Unfortunately, many people are going to view the activist's provocation as a justification for Israel's response and miss the home invasion/Somali pirate comparison altogether, and use that to misdirect from the fact that the commandos were on the aid ships illegally. It may or may not work, I certainly hope it doesn't. However, in the eyes of the unconditional Israel supporters (i.e. the United States government), this will weaken the activists' position and in some ways justify Israel's response. I think it's pretty clear that Israel knew what they were doing and acted deliberately by placing the commandos on board, knowing where it was heading. I'm sure they were well aware that the activists were going to respond the way they did by just purveying the situation beforehand and witnessing the unrest on board.


Has the United States made any official comments in regard to this?

edit: Nevermind, I only watched the video on the BBC link and didn't read the article. Apparently, the US is "currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding this tragedy."
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Reply 17 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 12:03:11 PM)
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What's all the hubbub about? Why the fuck do any of you care what goes on in a country that has about as much relevance to yourself that a tree falling in the woods has to God?
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Reply 18 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 12:05:03 PM)
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Why the fuck do you care about what we care about on a message board that has about as much relevance to yourself that a tree falling in the woods has to God?
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Reply 19 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 12:14:00 PM)
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Me? I don't know. It's something to do when I'm inbetween watchstanding on a rainy day.

edit: quid pro quo by the way, it's your turn
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Reply 20 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 02:46:14 PM)
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Quoted from ice:
Quote:
Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet

Al Jazeera's report on board the Mavi Marmara before communications were cut

Israeli forces have attacked a flotilla of aid-carrying ships aiming to break the country's siege on Gaza.

At least 19 people were killed and dozens injured when troops intercepted the convoy of ships dubbed the Freedom Flotilla early on Monday, Israeli radio reported.

The flotilla was attacked in international waters, 65km off the Gaza coast.


aljazeera link to make vissario angry

So this is pretty unarguably evil. I'm basically posting this to see who will try to defend attacking humanitarian aid-carrying civilians with assault weapons in international waters.

My, my. You're so confident that you won't get any credible opposition at all here, you're going to kick it up a notch and demonize those monstrous Zionists for their most recent war crime? Hell, you were mostly right, since my buddy Vissario decided to make a rather weak argument the second time around, and I'm anything but credible.

The ship went straight into a blockaded area, apparently declined or ignored any request for a peaceful search for weapons, then attacked men the armed men that boarded them. They were asking to die.

The media syndicates their stories, with reports ranging from those which only contain direct quotes from dissenters[1] to those which are outright propaganda against Israel [2], and reports a "worldwide backlash" against Israel due to the events. People all across the world that seem to have a wire running from the media embedded straight into their skulls now feel the need to protest in some regard and generally condemn Israel, while their enemies consequentially get seen in a more positive light, even though, in retrospect, the latter generally have exponentially more crimes attached to their names.

The people aboard the "Mission" wanted to use the media to instigate a tirade of bad press and pack mentality against Israel, and if a quick Google search means anything, they were very successful. Several of them became martyrs for their own cause.
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Reply 21 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 03:24:16 PM)
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Quoted from Found Missing:
The ship went straight into a blockaded area, apparently declined or ignored any request for a peaceful search for weapons, then attacked men the armed men that boarded them. They were asking to die.
The cargo had been inspected by various journalists and humanitarian organizations over the last couple weeks leading up them sailing. I'll admit that may not be sufficient for Israel authorities, just as it may not be sufficient for U.S. authorities if someone likewise tried to bring aid to the United States. That point is irrelevant, however, due to the fact that Israel made it clear over the course of the last week that regardless of whether they found weapons in the cargo, they would have diverted the ships anyway, claiming that aid was unnecessary, despite the fact that they provide far less than is necessary. In fact, they only provide approximately a quarter of what has been deemed necessary by independent humanitarian sources.

You also conveniently left out the part where they were in international waters, thus Israel had no legal right to raid the ships in the first place. They were not yet in an area where Israel could legally blockade them.
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Reply 22 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 03:27:04 PM)
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Quoted from ice and Sandy:
international waters

That's all anyone needs to know.
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Reply 23 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 04:15:06 PM)
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Quoted from Amphytight:
Quoted from ice and Sandy:
international waters

That's all anyone needs to know.


I feel like that is an arbitrary technicality, unless


A: If it had been in Israel watter you would be defending the Israel right now (or at least not attacking them)

B: If it had been in Israel water you think the blockade runners would have peacefully allowed the commando's to board
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Reply 24 of 79 (Originally posted on: 05-31-10 04:25:33 PM)
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It being international waters shows Israel's disregard for international law and portrays them as trigger-happy. Even if it was self-defense once they boarded the ship, it illustrates how little regard they usually have for the consequences of their operations.
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