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atlas sighed (at me)
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(Originally posted on: 01-29-09 10:47:03 AM)
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Obama is planning to give Ma and Pa consumers a 1,000$ tax cut for being consumers!

In the wake of this recent downturn in American spending, the inventiveness of our federal government has increased, if I may say so myself, by not leaps, not bounds, but by only tiny crawls. In a concerted effort to increase spending and increase the output of services, they have decided that throwing money at the problem is a far better solution than actually addressing the core of the problem; the system itself. Why even bother changing or regulating the industries which have created this mess when we can simply give them ever greater sums of money and make them dependent upon the government as a creditor?

But to this new plan by Obama, you at least have to give him credit for noticing the flaw in Bush's plan; that it helped foreign corporations that we purchase goods from almost as much as it helped the ones who call themselves "American". However, the consequence of this plan is doubtful because the average American probably won't even notice it or think about it until this time next year. So much for bright ideas to bring back cohesion to American spending.

But I'm not just a cynic, and so I would ask you what should be done? I honestly think that the banks and the corporations who gambled, and lost, should be allowed their own place in the Earth. The people who are made unemployed because of their foolishness, although lamentable in itself, will simply have to suffer. They should be taught that unless they petition their government to more effectively control and moderate the excesses of their capitalist system, they, the individual, will be burned by the actions of the society they live in. This is hard medicine that no body wants to swallow, but unless it is, people in this country will continue living in some fantasy world where everything is fields of green and skies of blue with red roses for me and for you, too.

What do you think?
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Reply 1 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 10:56:37 AM)
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I don't want a president who pays corporations any more than I want a president who pays me for doing nothing. Why not create more jobs, first?
Hello my name is Kristoffer Jørgensen and I am from Norweigen I come to see hot USA girls and history landmarks!!
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Reply 2 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 11:00:23 AM)
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Wait, how are you going to create more jobs?
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Reply 3 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 11:28:03 AM)
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take all that money and give it only to the people below the poverty line
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Reply 4 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 11:33:22 AM)
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The poverty line is so low that that honestly wouldn't help too many people.

$10,400 a year for single people.
$14,000 a year for a couple.
$17,600 a year for a family of 3.
Adopt a leggo my eggo ifo.
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Reply 5 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 11:45:10 AM)
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Quoted from antpocas:
take all that money and give it only to the people below the poverty line


I doubt the wisdom of that, too. Giving money to people who are going to spend it was the idea of Bush in 08'. Lo and behold that, after he had done it, the great masses of the people bought consumer goods that ended up benefitting China about as much as it did ourselves or simply socked it into the bank account. They didn't kickstart the economy or did they really invest it wisely. Really, if you offer a poor person 500$ just for no reason and out of the blue, are they going to buy CDs (Certificate of Deposit) for their kids to attend college on or are they going to buy that cool new iPhone?
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This reply was last edited on 01-29-09 11:50:23 AM by atlas sighed (at me).
antpocas
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Reply 6 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 12:35:36 PM)
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Quoted from IF0:
The poverty line is so low that that honestly wouldn't help too many people.

$10,400 a year for single people.
$14,000 a year for a couple.
$17,600 a year for a family of 3.
at least 10% of americans are below the poverty line, and this is by bush administration standards. the real number is probably something like 20%, and the majority of those are minorities and/or single parents
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Reply 7 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 01:40:54 PM)
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Quote:
They should be taught that unless they petition their government to more effectively control and moderate the excesses of their capitalist system, they, the individual, will be burned by the actions of the society they live in.


So the answer to the economy is for people to hold a bunch of protests? Please elaborate on what exactly you mean by this.

Quote:
the real number is probably something like 20%, and the majority of those are minorities and/or single parents


What difference does it make if they're minorities or not? If they are, it just means that it's easier for them to find work (Affirmative Action) and they're less deserving of a handout.
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Reply 8 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 01:58:26 PM)
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How do so many people make less than 10 grand a year? Don't you pretty much have to try to make that little? That's about 5 hours a day at minimum wage.
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Reply 9 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 02:27:39 PM)
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How about we cut corporate taxes so they can afford to increase production stateside? That will create jobs and give all those poor and unworking types money that they need.

Increase government spending on projects that will improve infrasctucture? Creates jobs and funnels money into the economy faster than cutting corporate taxes.

Doing both??

^^3ms economic plan vote 3ms '12
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Reply 10 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 02:52:19 PM)
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Unfortunatley the most successful way has been war. look at the great depression. WWII increased jobs, killed people off, and made survivors throw caution to the wind and skyrocketed spending in the 50's because of the baby boomers and so forth. Which is why i believe bush went to war with iraq. It was a pretty stupid and flawed plan though, because the cause wasn't good enough, didn't bring americans together except for 911. (conspiracy?). it ALMOST brought us out of recession though.
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Reply 11 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 02:53:40 PM)
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kill the rich
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Reply 12 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 03:02:32 PM)
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Feed them to the poor
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Reply 13 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 03:07:47 PM)
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Seriously, there's only so much he can do with the republicans being the obstructionist whiny babies that they are. 1/3 of the stimulus was tax cuts of various types in an effort to get the republicans to vote for it, but they still all voted against it like petulant children.

If they're not going to make the effort, Obama shouldn't either, and I wish he hadn't adulterated his stimulus bill in search of support that was withheld by a bunch of overgrown toddlers with persecution complexes.

nationalize the banks, double income tax after 250,000 (including capital gains), outlaw rush limbaugh, and raise inheritance tax to 100% after a million dollars.


edit: and depose / kill harry reid
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Reply 14 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 03:20:35 PM)
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Quoted from 3ms:
^^3ms economic plan vote 3ms '12

You are so not old enough to be running for anything important
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atlas sighed (at me)
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Reply 15 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 03:55:17 PM)
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Quoted from wheezy:
So the answer to the economy is for people to hold a bunch of protests? Please elaborate on what exactly you mean by this.


Yah, I want people to suffer. I want them to be tossed out into the cold and to feel the pinch of not having anything to call their own. When they feel this sensation, they will start expecting Uncle Sam to regulated the industries they have, until now, wanted to be mostly unregulated. I want them to think that the only way they are going to live their comfortable lives is if there is a well-made governmental body tailored to deal with the excesses of the free-market system they lovingly credit with their successes.

Also, poverty statistics listing it at 12% for 2006 with 36 million people in poverty

Quote:
How about we cut corporate taxes so they can afford to increase production stateside? That will create jobs and give all those poor and unworking types money that they need.


Corporate taxes are already at historical lows. Either way, none of this addresses the effect globalization is having in reducing the amount of jobs actually available to average Americans. Unless you have a degree, or a skill, or a lot of experience, no one is going to hire you in a marketplace which slants the absolute monetary advantage to foreign corporations. If anything, we should concentrate on protectionist policies that allow America corporations to compete in America against foreign corporations. The effect of lowering taxes is not proven to coorelate to increasing the amount of jobs that a corporation will allow; what it does allow, however, are higher profit margines.
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Reply 16 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 06:38:30 PM)
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[qp=598512,vislet]

Quote:
Yah, I want people to suffer. I want them to be tossed out into the cold and to feel the pinch of not having anything to call their own. When they feel this sensation, they will start expecting Uncle Sam to regulated the industries they have, until now, wanted to be mostly unregulated. I want them to think that the only way they are going to live their comfortable lives is if there is a well-made governmental body tailored to deal with the excesses of the free-market system they lovingly credit with their successes.



You really trust a governing body with that much power? you're just asking for a Completely government run world where the individual will no longer have a say in anything.
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Reply 17 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 07:06:00 PM)
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Why do people want to nationalize everything? Honest question.
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Reply 18 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 07:16:28 PM)
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Quoted from seventhlight:
[qp=598512,vislet]

Quote:
Yah, I want people to suffer. I want them to be tossed out into the cold and to feel the pinch of not having anything to call their own. When they feel this sensation, they will start expecting Uncle Sam to regulated the industries they have, until now, wanted to be mostly unregulated. I want them to think that the only way they are going to live their comfortable lives is if there is a well-made governmental body tailored to deal with the excesses of the free-market system they lovingly credit with their successes.



You really trust a governing body with that much power? you're just asking for a Completely government run world where the individual will no longer have a say in anything.


As it is right now the individual doesn't have much of a say. In this country, the leaders of our free-market system are the elite capitalists who control most of the capital and most of the actual produced goods and services. You, I, and everyone else are just workers in this vaste system who work for a profit which is both proportionately and absolutely smaller than their own. Our elected officials cannot help but listen to them and take orders from them considering that they, not the elected officials, control most of the money circulating in our society.

Put into the hands of our government the actual power to rule and decide how resources are used in society, and put said government into the hands of the voting body, and finally temper this with elder statesmanship, and you see a system of accountability that you cannot get with greedy robber-barons running the show.

Quote:
Why do people want to nationalize everything? Honest question.


See above post.
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Reply 19 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 07:22:15 PM)
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Nationalising is innefficient. It would also pretty much violate the original concept that the framers had.
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Reply 20 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 07:27:10 PM)
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What original concept? The framers of this constitution designed it with the idea being that it could bend and curve to fit the needs of the changing future. It is foolish to expect absolute adherence to a document written under a far different social context. Anyway, nationalization has already occured in some industries in our country and has already entered and advanced stage in many other successful and well-developed Western powers. Who says we couldn't do the same?

Oh, but the elite will!
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Reply 21 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 07:30:14 PM)
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The Constitution only exists as it is because the Articles of Confederation didn't work too well, but I see that as their original intent.

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.
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Reply 22 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 07:37:54 PM)
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Quoted from 3ms:
The Constitution only exists as it is because the Articles of Confederation didn't work too well, but I see that as their original intent.

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.


What did you get that from? The Young Republicans Club's by-lines?

Maybe sticking with an absolute view of the constitution as it was created in 1789 is a good idea. We could probably go ahead and revoke female suffrage along with blacks and property-less men under 21 because the Founders didn't think it was a good idea giving it to them. Oh, and why not just remove the right of citizens to have things like recall and referendum. Getting rid of silly things like the Pure Food and Drug act might even be a good idea too because the Founders didn't really say those should be in here.

Why not just go all the way back in time to that special place were we settled disputes with clubs and a good stoning?
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Reply 23 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 07:41:58 PM)
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We change overtime socially, but that doesn't mean the system of government needs to be substantially changed. Social and fiscal issues are not the same thing.
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Reply 24 of 57 (Originally posted on: 01-29-09 08:33:08 PM)
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The framers were capitalist imperialist misogynist racist republicans who believed the common man could not govern himself. Their thinking, though revolutionary at the time, is today quite backwards and reactionary. To attempt to use their 18th century logic to explain and solve the problems of the modern world is disingenuous and, I think, untrue to the spirit in which the constitution was written.
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