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atlas sighed (at me)
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Could I be living in a dream? A fantasy, perhaps? A magical place where America is going to march into the future with HOPE and CHANGE?

I doubt it.

Let us first consider the agents who are going to facilitate this change for at least the next 4 years in America:

President of the United States: Barack Obama

Vice President of the United States: Joe Biden

Chief of Staff: Rahm Emanuel

Secretary of State: Hillary Clinton

Secretary of Commerce: ~~Bill Richardson~~

Secretary of Defence: Robert Gates

Secretary of the Treasurey: Timothy Geithner

Which simply doesn't belong? If you guessed right, it's Barack Obama! Unlike all of the latter, Obama is the only one who isn't knee-deep in the political bullshit of the Clinton years or, surprisingly enough, the last president Dubya'. In fact, all of these people, other than Obama, are highly accomplished statesmen with years and years of experience in playing real politik on the hills of Washington D.C. for both political gain and personal profit. All Obama comes to this presidency with is a pretty face and a calling for HOPE and CHANGE. Like a prophet, if you will, a man of rags, who's conviction and skill is inspiring the rabble to exalt him into ever greater and greater heights. We have had many such prophets with such good words of 'progress' in the 20th century, and it seems this one will be no different.

Continuing on though, I don't wish to rest on that point. I suppose Obama is not the first, or the last, president to pick a cabinet of highly experienced men to "advise" him on correct policy matters. Why, you need only look back to 2000 with Dubya's mediocre election. In it, many of his critics argued that, unlike Gore, he was unqualified for the office he was about to take over. And they were right; he had success as a governor in a state where he was literally assured to win and had not done much of consequence during his tenure except to maintain the status quo of Texas. When he did "win", however, he was quick to load his office full of men who served with his father before him and those who could be counted upon to advise him on the necessity of real politik at home and abroad. Eight years later, Obama has done the same for the exact same purpose; to answer the criticism that he is a know-nothing with the only thing to offer being polemics and powerful hand gestures. Why, he even recruited his competition from the election: Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and Bill Richardson. Add Rahm Emanuel into the pot and what do you get; a dream team of people who's ideas and platforms are so synonymous with "politics as usual" that is is almost laughable that he will continue talking about his dreams of HOPE and CHANGE with Oprah.

But what does Obama expect to accomplish with this list of retainers? They are not idiots, and they most certainly aren't whelplings. They are tough, gritted men and women who have been in politics their entire lives and know how to push their agenda past their opponents. This seems in contrast to the President; a man of a relatively young age with little experience and little practical knowledge on how to get things done. His policies for HOPE and CHANGE aren't going to get done by themselves, after all. He was elected on a margin of around 54% of the popular vote and doesn't even have a congress he can totally rely upon with this recession fully setting in. So, then it will become up to his retinue to do it for him. His personality isn't exactly that of the school-yard bully which so many politicians use for good measure. No, he's a pretty man who looks good talking off of script about the issues people like to hear comforting things over.

If you were like me at the beginning of the post and were lost in a shining meadow of HOPE and CHANGE, you had better wake up and see just who is going to be running this country for the next four years. This recession is not going to end like the snap of a hat, and even if it does, the effect Obama has will probably be laughable because Obama is not even going to be the one running the show. His advisers will.

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

This reply was last edited on 01-19-09 03:20:03 PM by atlas sighed (at me).

emtilt

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You're hilarious.

this is my music i hope you like it
this is music i listen to these are movies i like these are books i like

atlas sighed (at me)
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Quoted from emtilt:
You're hilarious.

I try my best. Have anything to add?

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

emtilt

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Nope. Hitler photos are fun, though.

this is my music i hope you like it
this is music i listen to these are movies i like these are books i like

Science Brad
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Yeah yeah we get it, you're so against the establishment/not a nazi/not a consumer of goods etc.

Your list isn't even up to date. If you're going to try and point out inadequacies you might as well be up to date. Mr. Richardson withdrew after concerns about an investigation in his home state.

"We've arranged a civilization in which most crucial elements profoundly depend on science and technology. We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces." -Carl Sagan

atlas sighed (at me)
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So if I take the hitler photo out, will you stop spamming my thread?

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

emtilt

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I was pretty much already done, but you keep directly addressing me in question form, so I feel compelled to reply. This has been a nice chat though!

this is my music i hope you like it
this is music i listen to these are movies i like these are books i like

atlas sighed (at me)
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Quoted from Science Brad:
Yeah yeah we get it, you're so against the establishment/not a nazi/not a consumer of goods etc.

Your list isn't even up to date. If you're going to try and point out inadequacies you might as well be up to date. Mr. Richardson withdrew after concerns about an investigation in his home state.

Haha, I love it. Sci Brad doesn't even pretend to read what I post beyond the first few lines.

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

Air Bud
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atlas sighed (at me)
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Haha, good stuff.

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

atlas sighed (at me)
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How about we call it even and not allow any pictures in this thread?

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

Science Brad
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Quoted from vissario:
Quoted from Science Brad:
Yeah yeah we get it, you're so against the establishment/not a nazi/not a consumer of goods etc.

Your list isn't even up to date. If you're going to try and point out inadequacies you might as well be up to date. Mr. Richardson withdrew after concerns about an investigation in his home state.

Haha, I love it. Sci Brad doesn't even pretend to read what I post beyond the first few lines.

It's always the same. Lemme guess, stuff about how its all hype, how its been heard before, or how Obama is incompetent and his advisers will run the show in some sort of secret cabal.

Air Bud
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The reason no one cares is not because you don't make valid arguments, you do, despite the fact that most don't agree with the basic premise in which you base your argument, but rather because there is no open dialog, there is no reciprocation, there is no sense of being respected despite differing viewpoints. So rather than argue with you in a pointless battle of the wits, its more rewarding to withdraw, let you continue believing whatever you believe and save ourselves the hassle of engaging in a non-rewarding discourse.

Until you learn how to approach matters in a more tactful and accessible way, the only people you're going to goad into discussion are gluttons for punishment and newbies. Everyone else will just troll your threads and get away with it.

atlas sighed (at me)
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I have criticized Obama's first moves as president, not his supporters or really even himself that greatly. If you don't care to point out how I am wrong about his clever appointment of "advisors", then let that be so; just don't idly spam my thread for the shits and giggles of trolling the vissario.

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

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I read the thread title and knew it was a vissario thread

Quoted from Sandamnit:
but rather because there is no open dialog, there is no reciprocation, there is no sense of being respected despite differing viewpoints. So rather than argue with you in a pointless battle of the wits, its more rewarding to withdraw, let you continue believing whatever you believe and save ourselves the hassle of engaging in a non-rewarding discourse.

Until you learn how to approach matters in a more tactful and accessible way, the only people you're going to goad into discussion are gluttons for punishment and newbies. Everyone else will just troll your threads and get away with it.

and boom goes the dynamite

Pertti Susilainen
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Quoted from vissario:
I have criticized Obama's first moves as president, not his supporters or really even himself that greatly. If you don't care to point out how I am wrong about his clever appointment of "advisors", then let that be so; just don't idly spam my thread for the shits and giggles of trolling the vissario.

You know how it goes, Do not do unto others...

Ðonne onwæcneð eft wineleas guma, gesihð him biforan fealwe wegas, baþian brimfuglas, brædan feþra, hreosan hrim ond snaw hagle gemenged. Þonne beoð þy hefigran heortan benne, sare æfter swæsne. Sorg bið geniwad þonne maga gemynd mod geondhweorfeð, greteð gliwstafum, georne geondsceawað secga geseldan; swimmað oft on weg. Fleotendra ferð no þær fela bringeð cuðra cwidegiedda.
The Wanderer, l. 45-55a

atlas sighed (at me)
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Yes, blood feuds are a great idea, sukkit.

If you want to make a change, be the change.

A witty saying proves nothing - Voltaire

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I agree with the OP

fuck clintonites

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I'd like to add...

FART

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Quote:
just don't idly spam my thread for the shits and giggles of trolling the vissario.

You're not the boss of me, fagboy

U CANT TRICK THE TRICKSTER

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So you guys don't like him because he never bends to your perspective? That's all I get out of Sandamnit's post. What's rewarding then? Arguing until you agree to disagree? Making somebody else believe what you believe?
You make it sound like the last one. In that case you're angry that he never lets you win, regardless of whether he is right or wrong. Internet arguments are pointless by nature anyway.

Pertti Susilainen
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Eh, that's not it at all. Actually Sandamnit put it in too mild terms. You see, when he said there's no sense of reciprocation and no open dialog, he meant vissario will ignore everything you say except for tiny specific bits he can twist and throw back at you by taking them out of context or just purposely misinterpreting them. It gets tiresome after a while, and it makes you think vissario is not in this for the debating (after all, he chooses not to address the main points) but for the pissing others off. At that point, you just say "fuck him" and troll his threads, because seriously, fuck him.

Before your time.

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Quoted from 3ms:
So you guys don't like him because he never bends to your perspective? That's all I get out of Sandamnit's post. What's rewarding then? Arguing until you agree to disagree? Making somebody else believe what you believe?
You make it sound like the last one. In that case you're angry that he never lets you win, regardless of whether he is right or wrong. Internet arguments are pointless by nature anyway.

The reason most Internet arguments are pointless is because of exactly what I said, there's no reciprocation, no sense of respect, and they end up deteriorating into a pointless battle of the wits to no end. I've had plenty of rewarding and interesting discussions on this very forum with people who have vastly different viewpoints than mine and I have benefited immensely from them and I suspect the converse, likewise.

What makes arguments worthwhile and rewarding is not what you suggest in that you argue until you agree to disagree or bend someone to your will or force them into your perspective, but to discuss in a civil and respectful manner that doesn't delineate into ad hominem and insults. When you are essentially insulted in your view for unimportant bits of trivia, skewed semantics, quoted out of context, or completely ignored altogether, it makes the process unrewarding and pointless.

In order to gain reward from argument, you must be heard. In order to be heard, you need to argue against someone who will actually hear you and take what you are saying into consideration. If they differ with you, they don't nitpick one aspect and use that as a platform to discredit everything you've said.

It also helps to at least attempt to initiate discussion in a manner that isn't perceived as hostile and/or rhetorical.

Dio

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I agree with you wholly, vissario. Good post.

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I actually find myself of a somewhat similar opinion. I think wherever Obama's personal beliefs lie, the United States' government alongside its political and social system is still broken and its healthcare system may be exemplified as a what-not-to-do example as far as serving the public goes. That, and the fact that it's been driven into absurd debt and pushing for the Amero (which I think is a terrible idea) seems inevitable...

Obama himself is a talented speaker (though I got bored during his acceptance speech), and it seems that he has quite an effect on the population, making him ideal as a leader, which is great as long as he continues to value ideals that promote public action and prosperity for all. Unfortunately, as was mentioned, he's not the only one running the country. Dubya wasn't a one-man wrecking crew when it came to the United States (despite being a colossal asshole and a terrible example of a human being) - he had plenty of help from the scary guys like Cheney and Rove. If Obama can bring about a sense of passion in the common person, though, the country will be on the rise very rapidly as they take action. As it is, the common person seems rather apathetic toward the idea of public good and their idea of causing change is voting for a man who preaches it.

I feel enormously stupid because I'm not up to date on a lot of politics, but getting my opinion out there is an opportunity to learn where I'm wrong.

A quick note about this, though, is that there seem to be plenty of Canadians who are pleased as punch to see Obama as President (hell, we're all glad that the Republicans are out, I think), but for all their positive attitude and enjoyment in listening to him speak, nobody can really say what they think he's going to change or how.

how is this for a quote

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