Username [Register?]: | Password [Lost Password?]: Save Password?
Bottom of Page
INTL v5.0 > Site Comments > Archives > Archived Forums > Bitching Battleground: The God Damned TV Channel > Clinton '08: give up already > Viewing Thread
Also Here: 1 guest.
Page: [ 1 2 ] [ Thread Views: 2253 | Total Posts: 49 ]
Rate This Thread: Reply to Thread | Create New Thread | Create New Poll | Convert To Poll | Subscribe To Thread
Guy Tuttle and Ass
Global Moderator

gotta get that VICTORY ROYALE #gamer #memes #LoL

Ballkicks: (+1782 / -130)
Posts: 15966 (2.362)
Reg. Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Gender: Male
(Originally posted on: 04-21-08 01:36:35 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Can't she just fucking give up already? I just watched her campaign president, Terry McCauliff, on Situation Room, and it was an exercise in stupidity.

Wolf Blitzer actually did a fairly good job asking critical questions, he asked McCauliff about key policy differences between Clinton and Obama, and the guy cited health care, which everyone knows about, and experience, which is now a policy decision?

Also over the course of the interview he repeatedly mentioned that Clinton's electoral college score is higher than Obama's (233 to 199 or something like that), like that meant anything! So his argument is that if Obama and Clinton were running against each other in the presidential election, Clinton would win, which means absolutely nothing.

His argument that Clinton has power in big states is stupid. Clinton won New York and California, which will vote democratic no matter what. You can't count Florida really, because they didn't campaign there. The only significant wins are Ohio and Texas, except that Texas is pretty likely to go to McCain anyway. So she has Ohio.

Obama on the other hand has managed to win huge margins in traditional republican strongholds in the northwest and the south. It's quite possible he will be able to swing some states in those areas that people don't even usually think of as swing states. In a way, his appeal to places like Idaho is better, because the larger more liberal states that may have voted for Clinton will vote for anything with a democratic party sticker.
Ztolk
INTL Premium Member
Rawr.

definitely threw the blue lego

Ballkicks: (+838 / -47)
Posts: 7237 (1.071)
Reg. Date: Mar 2002
Location: r, θ, φ
Gender: Male
Reply 1 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-21-08 05:05:02 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

I'm sure they know that, but they can't say "We basically won Ohio and Obama won evrthing else"
"I used the internet to get laid once. That is not a shining moment of pride for me. The worst thing? She evidently gave me chlamydia, which I evidently got cleared up."
-Wandering Idiot
mmac
INTL Premium Member
it's INTL, not the fucking UN - Amphy

3ms will rise again

Ballkicks: (+254 / -35)
Posts: 2339 (0.411)
Reg. Date: Feb 2005
Location: Minneapolis
Gender: Male
Reply 2 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-22-08 08:09:22 AM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

I think she's just trying to make it so either she's president, or McCain is. But what else would you expect from somebody who has proven themself to be a blistering cunt time and time again.
http://www.michaelmcelhinney.com

An atom walks into a bar looking very depressed.
Bartender: What's wrong?
Atom: I've just lost an electron.
Bartender: Are you sure?
Atom: Yeah, I'm positive.
D
Administrator

i didn't have the strength to get it all the way off

Ballkicks: (+1950 / -91)
Posts: 18503 (2.737)
Reg. Date: Mar 2002
Location:
Gender: Male
Reply 3 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-22-08 01:30:16 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Quoted from mmac:
I think she's just trying to make it so either she's president, or McCain is. But what else would you expect from somebody who has proven themself to be a blistering cunt time and time again.

How is that surprising/any different from what Obama is doing. By winning the primary, the candidate is effectively making it either them or McCain. Judging by the commercials running around here (PA), Obama is trying VERY hard to do that, with his scary fucking commercials.

Other than his scary commercials, he's also run probably 20 commercials about Hilary's commercials for every one of Hilary's actually commercials running.
Guy Tuttle and Ass
Global Moderator

gotta get that VICTORY ROYALE #gamer #memes #LoL

Ballkicks: (+1782 / -130)
Posts: 15966 (2.362)
Reg. Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Gender: Male
Reply 4 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-22-08 02:46:40 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Yeah, he's got a lot more money.

Americablog wrote something pertinent to this thread today:

Quoted from Americablog:
Hillary: "A win is a win." Yes it is, Hillary. And you lost.
John Aravosis (DC), Apr 22, 2008 14:10:00 GMT

For the love of God, would a real reporter please just ask Hillary under what possible scenario she gets more delegates, more states, or more votes than Obama? You all keep playing this game of following her around like she's news. The only reason she's news is that she's an election zombie, roaming the primaries like she's still viable, when she's not. And you know it. And you've written it. But you don't ask her about it. Far more important than even Hillary's bizarre and ever-changing views on nuclear weapons policy is the fact that it doesn't matter any more what Hillary thinks about anything. She lost the nomination. She can't win. And short of an asteroid falling on Obama's head, he's going to get the nomination. We're all focused like a laser beam on the Pennsylvania results as if they matter. They don't. She lost. She can't catch up. We all know it. So why are we still playing this game? Because it would be mean to tell her the truth? Mean to ask her to explain how she possibly wins enough delegates, or even votes, when the math says she can't? What is she, 12? George Stephanopoulos said he couldn't think of a harder question to ask Hillary than as to why people don't trust her. Well, here's one, George: "Under what possible scenario could you catch up to Obama in either delegates or votes?" And don't accept her platitudes about "counting every vote." She can't mathematically overtake Obama, so what is she doing, other than wasting all of our time (and destroying her family's reputation)? (That's another "hard" question, George.)
Angus

D'oh!

Ballkicks: (+621 / -84)
Posts: 2742 (0.46)
Reg. Date: Jun 2004
Location: Michigan
Gender: Unspecified
Reply 5 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-27-08 08:38:13 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

ya sew... hillary just won pennsylvania n will prob win indiana
Guy Tuttle and Ass
Global Moderator

gotta get that VICTORY ROYALE #gamer #memes #LoL

Ballkicks: (+1782 / -130)
Posts: 15966 (2.362)
Reg. Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Gender: Male
Reply 6 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-27-08 09:20:38 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Of course she won Pennsylvania, and yeah, she might win Indiana, but no, that won't change anything, and she still can't win.
Acheron
INTL Premium Member
If I die in Raleigh, at least I will die free.

is this guy acheron???????? hahaha acheron you big fag

Ballkicks: (+224 / -116)
Posts: 1538 (0.255)
Reg. Date: Mar 2004
Location: Miami
Gender: Male
Reply 7 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-27-08 10:05:10 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Quoted from ice:
The only significant wins are Ohio and Texas, except that Texas is pretty likely to go to McCain anyway. So she has Ohio.


Actually, more people voted for Hillary Clinton in the Texas Primary than voted in the entire republican primary.

Here's the numbers:

Hillary Clinton 1,459,814 50.89% 65
Barack Obama 1,358,785 47.37% 61
John Edwards 30,012 1.05% 0
Bill Richardson 10,769 0.37% 0
Joe Biden 5,327 0.19% 0
Christopher Dodd 3,747 0.13% 0
Totals 2,868,454 100.00% 126

VS
ohn McCain 707,622 51% 80
Mike Huckabee 521,950 38% 16
Ron Paul 69,824 5% 0
Total 1,380,907

1,459,814
Vs.
1,380,907

Hillary Clinton has been pulling in the Rural voters that don't typically vote for democrats. People in republican strongholds are casting more votes for her than were cast in the republican primaries. In Virginia, she won every county that typically goes republican. She won critical swing counties that the democrats have never won Virginia without. And yet Obama is better with the rural folks in strongholds?

Quote:
Florida


Now this situation just pisses me off. In Florida, the republicans control the state government. If Democrats want to have a primary that the state pays for, we have to have it on the date the republicans say. We fought them into getting a permanent paper trail on our e-voting machines so that 2004 fraud crap never happens again (Finally, it took long enough) because we thought that making sure that a fair vote was counted in the presidential election was more important than when the primary was.

If you count Florida, Hillary Clinton is the winner of the popular vote for the democratic nomination.

And who cares if they didn't campaign in Florida. We still heard them talked about. We still watched the debates. We got the perfect election: All the debates, none of the ads. Now if only they'd count our votes.

And by the way, it is catastrophically stupid to decide that the democratic party of the most crucial swing state of the past two elections shouldn't have its vote counted because that state's republican party decided to change the date.

You also might see a different reaction in NC than was expected. The Guns and Religion comment pissed off some people. I've been hearing about that for a while, and you can't expect to win the south if you make a gaffe like that.

If Obama runs agains McCain, he's going to play that clip over, and over again, and those same Rural people you think he might be able to win in the election will go for McCain because he understands that for most of rural America, guns aren't toys: they're meal tickets. The vast majority of gun owners in the rural south use guns to literally put meat on their family's table. We're talking about farmers, factory workers, and coal miners here, the rural underclass. Obama's comments show just how little he understands about them, and you think he can win them? Well, maybe against McCain who's about as exciting as watching grass grow, but it's still not a safe bet.

The point is, more people, total, (discounting the state that didn't have Obama on the ballot) have voted for Hillary Clinton this election, than for Barack Obama. I don't blame her for staying in, and you can bet that there will be some major rule changes before the next election.

And I don't understand why she should get out. You say she can't win, but it's still possible. If you're talking about states, then it's not possible for either of them to win, no matter how many states go to either person. It comes down to the superdelegates now.

It's a stalemate, and she's just a few points behind.

So sure, Barack will probably win NC, but he still can't win. Even if he sweeps every primary from here on out, he can't win. Should he resign? Well no, because he's ahead. But why should Hillary? Still no, because she's only a few points behind. It's still fairly possible for her to pull this off because it's so close right now.

So if neither of them can win, then the point of the rest of this race is convincing the superdelegates. And no matter what math they use at the end of the day, they'll be able to say that whoever won the candidacy won the popular vote. It's about whose votes you don't count in that number. Oh, and I remind you, if you count every vote, Hillary is ahead.


EDIT:

Just to let you know what I mean by "Obama Cant Win"

Here are the gallup polls for the past few days:

Clinton Obama
4/26/08
47 47

4/25/08
47 47

4/24/08
47 48

4/23/08
44 49


Now if you go to this website, you can play with delegate counts:

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/29/delegate.counter/index.html

Even if Obama sweeps every remaining primary with 70% of the vote  And he's never won by a margin anywhere near that , it is impossible for him to win the nomination based on state wins.
"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." -IF Stone
This reply was last edited on 04-27-08 10:31:51 PM by Acheron.
Guy Tuttle and Ass
Global Moderator

gotta get that VICTORY ROYALE #gamer #memes #LoL

Ballkicks: (+1782 / -130)
Posts: 15966 (2.362)
Reg. Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Gender: Male
Reply 8 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-27-08 11:46:30 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

What the hell? Every single argument you just listed can be applied to Hillary too, except with more accuracy, because she's losing.



Quote:
Actually, more people voted for Hillary Clinton in the Texas Primary than voted in the entire republican primary.


This has been happening across the country during this primary season, it's nothing remarkable. Hillary or not, it's extremely unlikely that the Dems will carry Texas.

Quote:
Florida stuff


I didn't know that stuff about the Florida republicans, that's pretty fucked up and makes me hate Florida democrats less.

However the fact remains that both candidates agreed to not count Florida and Michigan, and now Hillary wants to count them because she'll lose otherwise, and she's trying to paint it like she's the savior of democracy. She agreed to them not counting, so they don't count, it's a moot point, really.

Quote:
If Obama runs agains McCain, he's going to play that clip over, and over again, and those same Rural people you think he might be able to win in the election will go for McCain because he understands that for most of rural America, guns aren't toys: they're meal tickets. The vast majority of gun owners in the rural south use guns to literally put meat on their family's table. We're talking about farmers, factory workers, and coal miners here, the rural underclass. Obama's comments show just how little he understands about them, and you think he can win them? Well, maybe against McCain who's about as exciting as watching grass grow, but it's still not a safe bet.


And you think Clinton will appeal to them any more than Obama will? She has one of the most pro-gun control records of anyone in the senate right now. Everyone saw through her bullshit gun story in Pennsylvania, what makes you think people are going to fall for it in November? Don't try to make this bitter thing a big deal, because it's not, no one in Pennsylvania cared, except for talking heads on TV.

Quote:
you can bet that there will be some major rule changes before the next election.



Yep. I think they should get rid of superdelegates, to remove the chance of a bullshit coup taking place because one person has the party elites on their side. The only way she can win is if she convinces the superdelegates to overturn the popular vote, would that be legitimate?

As you said, there will be some rule changes, specifically which flaws are you talking about? Is it the one where someone can lose the primary but still win the nomination?
Angus

D'oh!

Ballkicks: (+621 / -84)
Posts: 2742 (0.46)
Reg. Date: Jun 2004
Location: Michigan
Gender: Unspecified
Reply 9 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-28-08 08:52:16 AM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

I hate both Hillary and Obama, but at least Hillary has been taking shit the entire election cycle like she's supposed to. Obama just got a free pass for most of this election because of all that change/hope bullshit, but now people are finally starting to call him out on that.

I doubt he would have won so many early states if people had caught on to his bullshit earlier like they are now.
atlas sighed (at me)
User is currently banned until further notice.

Reply 10 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-28-08 02:00:59 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Quoted from José Rizal:
I hate both Hillary and Obama, but at least Hillary has been taking shit the entire election cycle like she's supposed to. Obama just got a free pass for most of this election because of all that change/hope bullshit, but now people are finally starting to call him out on that.

I doubt he would have won so many early states if people had caught on to his bullshit earlier like they are now.


no one wants to be called a nigger-hating, confederate flag waiving, honkey
Acheron
INTL Premium Member
If I die in Raleigh, at least I will die free.

is this guy acheron???????? hahaha acheron you big fag

Ballkicks: (+224 / -116)
Posts: 1538 (0.255)
Reg. Date: Mar 2004
Location: Miami
Gender: Male
Reply 11 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-29-08 09:45:37 AM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Quoted from ice:
What the hell? Every single argument you just listed can be applied to Hillary too, except with more accuracy, because she's losing.


That's because the election is no longer about winning state primaries.

It's about convincing the superdelegates, democratic party elders, that you are the best candidate now.

Quoted from ice:
coup, overturn the popular vote


If they go for Hillary Clinton, they will also validate the Florida election for the good reasons I highlighted so that they don't look like assholes.

That way all of the numbers look legitimate, including the popular vote. And if you count Florida, Hillary has won the popular vote.

Aside from Michigan, where Barack wasn't on the ballot, Florida should be counted.

Florida is the Kingmaker, the biggest swing state in the union, and demoralizing your base there is a bad idea.

And this isn't a Hillary Clinton thing, this is a Florida thing. If Barack Obama had won Florida, I would still be arguing that the votes be counted because I care more about a democratic president than who is the nominee.

But I don't understand why everyone thinks that letting the process of democracy decide the candidate is a bad idea.

I also don't understand why democrats won't vote for the other candidate like everyone is saying. If Barack wins the nomination, I'll change my Avatar, too, because I do like him. I just like Hillary more.

Let the process work, people. And Hillary and Barack are quite similar, so it's not like there will be no choice. The reason I'm for Hillary is because I think she can get the job done.

If someone could, for the sake of my comfort level (I don't care about the argument) give me a list of things that Barack Obama has actually done? I'm not aware of a single piece of legislation or any political victory he's had... well, ever.

So please, I am not arguing here, I am a democrat who is worried about his capability to lead, tell me what he's done.
"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." -IF Stone
This reply was last edited on 04-29-08 09:55:54 AM by Acheron.
Hoff
Lightnin' Hopkins

Helping a brother out.

Ballkicks: (+192 / -38)
Posts: 2563 (0.478)
Reg. Date: Jan 2006
Location:
Gender: Male
Reply 12 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-29-08 10:06:25 AM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

why not do a re-vote in florida allowing both candidates to campaign and pander to your vote. That seems like the fair thing to do anyway.
Guy Tuttle and Ass
Global Moderator

gotta get that VICTORY ROYALE #gamer #memes #LoL

Ballkicks: (+1782 / -130)
Posts: 15966 (2.362)
Reg. Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Gender: Male
Reply 13 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-29-08 11:21:57 AM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

All your arguments on Florida make sense, and it would have been better to include them. But they should have gotten their shit together earlier. It's their own fault, and it's too late to include them now.

This is in addition to the fact that, as I have said before, Hillary agreed explicitly that Florida would not count when she thought she was going to win easily, and now only cares about Florida because she's going to lose otherwise.

Quote:
why not do a re-vote in florida allowing both candidates to campaign and pander to your vote. That seems like the fair thing to do anyway.


It's just kinda too late for that, the organizing such a thing would take a couple months.
Acheron
INTL Premium Member
If I die in Raleigh, at least I will die free.

is this guy acheron???????? hahaha acheron you big fag

Ballkicks: (+224 / -116)
Posts: 1538 (0.255)
Reg. Date: Mar 2004
Location: Miami
Gender: Male
Reply 14 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-29-08 04:27:08 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Quoted from ice:
Quote:
why not do a re-vote in florida allowing both candidates to campaign and pander to your vote. That seems like the fair thing to do anyway.


It's just kinda too late for that, the organizing such a thing would take a couple months.


We tried. There's no money to pay for it.

Look, if the Superdelegates want Hillary, they'll make the party count Florida so that she looks like she won the popular vote.

Till then, I say let the system work.
"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." -IF Stone
Guy Tuttle and Ass
Global Moderator

gotta get that VICTORY ROYALE #gamer #memes #LoL

Ballkicks: (+1782 / -130)
Posts: 15966 (2.362)
Reg. Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Gender: Male
Reply 15 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-29-08 04:36:17 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Quoted from Acheron:
We tried. There's no money to pay for it.

Look, if the Superdelegates want Hillary, they'll make the party count Florida so that she looks like she won the popular vote.

Till then, I say let the system work.


so you admit the only way she can win is by cheating? ok good enough for me
Acheron
INTL Premium Member
If I die in Raleigh, at least I will die free.

is this guy acheron???????? hahaha acheron you big fag

Ballkicks: (+224 / -116)
Posts: 1538 (0.255)
Reg. Date: Mar 2004
Location: Miami
Gender: Male
Reply 16 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-29-08 09:02:36 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Quoted from ice:
Quoted from Acheron:
We tried. There's no money to pay for it.

Look, if the Superdelegates want Hillary, they'll make the party count Florida so that she looks like she won the popular vote.

Till then, I say let the system work.


so you admit the only way she can win is by cheating? ok good enough for me


Cheating?

This is politics. And the rules say that the winner is whomever the party SAYS is the winner, so no, it's not cheating.

If the democratic party says that Florida counts, then Florida counts according to the rules.

Cheating? I respect you, man, but we're talking about politics, not kickball.

Changing the rules is how this garbage works. I don't like it, but Obama has benefited from it too. Most of the states Hillary has won with her rural vote have democratic parties which are controlled by rich urban democrats. They've made the rules so that when the rural voters vote for people that the urbanite democrats don't like, the person the urbanite democrats like gets delegates too. Clinton got something like 60 delegates from pennsylvania because the urbanites and the working class are in the same party but don't like each other. I could call that cheating if I wanted to, because Obama has won his share of winner take all states, and most of Hillary's state victories have split delegate counts. That's "Not Fair," and because the Obama supporting urbanites set up the system that way to disenfranchise the working class, I might call it cheating. But it's not cheating, it's politics.

Cheating is when you dump boxes of ballots from black districts into the everglades. Cheating is when half the people who vote for you are deceased. Cheating is when you have all the people daddy helped put on the supreme court vote you into the white house. Cheating is when the Diebold voting machines set up in black districts only let every other democrat vote count.

The Democratic party voting according to its own rules to count Florida for good reasons isn't cheating.

I mean, we really are talking about punishing democratic voters for something the republican government did. Counting those votes isn't cheating, it's the right thing to do. If Hillary wins, great. If Obama wins, that's also great.

I don't see what the big deal about all this is anyway. The system is working. Let it work. (And count my vote while you're at it, damnit.)
"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." -IF Stone
Pertti Susilainen
Head Priest

mr. sukkit

Ballkicks: (+924 / -57)
Posts: 7104 (1.094)
Reg. Date: Dec 2002
Location: Mayrit
Gender: Male
Reply 17 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-30-08 02:58:39 AM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Weren't you an idealist, Acheron? What happened?
Šonne onwęcneš eft wineleas guma, gesihš him biforan fealwe wegas, bažian brimfuglas, brędan fežra, hreosan hrim ond snaw hagle gemenged. Žonne beoš žy hefigran heortan benne, sare ęfter swęsne. Sorg biš geniwad žonne maga gemynd mod geondhweorfeš, greteš gliwstafum, georne geondsceawaš secga geseldan; swimmaš oft on weg. Fleotendra ferš no žęr fela bringeš cušra cwidegiedda.
The Wanderer, l. 45-55a
Magus

Benze and I should have a sad-off

Ballkicks: (+77 / -47)
Posts: 856 (0.127)
Reg. Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Gender: Male
Reply 18 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-30-08 06:03:03 AM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

I think that I would rather vote for Obama since he seems to back more of his arguments more articulately than Clinton. I think that Clinton is just straining this whole argument out too far and should admit defeat before McCain capitalizes too much on this apparent rift between Democrats squabbling over Obama and Clinton. Obama I think is much more qualified for president and Clinton is just fighting a losing battle.

Besides, I would think the White House staff would shoot themselves if they worked for some woman with a cackle as bad as Hillary's.
College...
Guy Tuttle and Ass
Global Moderator

gotta get that VICTORY ROYALE #gamer #memes #LoL

Ballkicks: (+1782 / -130)
Posts: 15966 (2.362)
Reg. Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Gender: Male
Reply 19 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-30-08 12:09:31 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Nonprofit Women's Voices Women Vote Stops Suspicious N.C. Robo Calls

Quote:
Yesterday we posted about suspicious calls being made in North Carolina. The calls purported to be from a man who identified himself only as "Lamont Williams" and told people to wait for a vote registration packet in the mail and said, "All you need to do is sign it, date it and return your application. Then you will be able to vote and make your voice heard."

Democracy North Carolina, a government watchdog, cried foul, saying that the calls went out to "black neighborhoods" and was evidently a vote suppression tactic since the registration deadline for the presidential primary has already passed. The North Carolina state elections board got involved and asked for the public's help in determining the source of the calls, which apparently blocked caller ID from showing the number. You can listen to the call here (wav).

Now Facing South reports that a Washington nonprofit called Women's Voices Women Vote is behind the calls.


Hmm... why would a women's advocacy group want to suppress the vote in black neighborhoods?
Acheron
INTL Premium Member
If I die in Raleigh, at least I will die free.

is this guy acheron???????? hahaha acheron you big fag

Ballkicks: (+224 / -116)
Posts: 1538 (0.255)
Reg. Date: Mar 2004
Location: Miami
Gender: Male
Reply 20 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-30-08 05:00:16 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Oh no! Hillary Clinton or some of her supporters did something underhanded? I am crushed! My entire worldview has collapsed! Woe is me, I shall now burn all of my Clinton For President Memorabillia.

Now let me say that I don't support suppressing the voice of the American people. Tactics like that are stupid, and they shouldn't be used by anyone. Devious is only OK if the target is another politician. If the target is the American people, you should be Jailed. If Clinton was behind it, she should be. Period. Attacking the American Public should have consequences, and if you look at people like Katherine Harris, it does, even if you escape jail time for it.

Look, I'm aware that I'm not going to convince you or anyone here to vote for Clinton, so I'm not going to try, but I think we need to cut the bullshit and talk about reality now.

If you want a clean race where nothing at all untoward happens then you'll have to violate the first amendment and the right to free speech six ways from Sunday. You'll also probably undermine America's power. Neither do I support.

But this is politics. It's always going to be dirty, and it should be dirty. If you are an honest Joe who can't prove yourself to be devious and who really believes in being honorable in all things, you shouldn't sit in the Oval office, although feel free to become the president of Iran.

I want my politicians to be devious scumbags so that they have the kind of mind that can fight off the devious scumbags in charge of other nations.

I want everyone to know that their politicians are devious scumbags because then we won't trust them and will hang them out to dry the first time they do something truly unethical. I want the government to fear the tyranny of the electorate. That's why Obama is dangerous. He'll go in thinking he has nothing to fear from us.

I want politicians to sleep in terror every night about what the American people might do to them because of those skeletons rattling in their closet. I don't want someone who looks like a paragon of light and justice to be the leader of the country. I don’t want some great guy who’s made of Teflon to be able to do whatever the hell they want because people love them. Whenever a politician has the trust and love of the whole nation, horrible things happen because almost no politician is a nice person. And the ones who start nice don’t stay nice.

Those people who we look up to as genuinely good should be the uncompromising social critics like Martin Luther King or Ghandi who couldn't lead a country because they're paragons of truth, light, and justice. If you’re a good person, lead a movement, not a state.

Every time we get someone into power who is a genuinely good person and not at all devious they end up getting torn down.

Look at Jimmy Carter.

Look at William Jennings Bryan, one of the truly good men who ran for public office. As secretary of state he refused to threaten Germany in response to the sinking of the Lusitania because he was afraid that it might lead to war.

He's a great preacher, a good man, and a wonderful leader for the labor and Temperence movements, but he wasn't devious enough to be a good politician.

The truly great leaders we've had have never been wonderful people. You can't be a wonderful person and still have the capability to make the hard choices a politician has to make. Abe Lincoln, John Kennedy, Woodrow Wilson, Dwight Eisenhower, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, none of them were nice men.

To choose a random example, Dwight Eisenhower was the most effective part of the US Army force used to attack the "Bonus Expeditionary Force," a peacefully assembled group of WWI veterans demanding enough of the bonus pay the government had promised them to feed their families. He was responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians who were trying to feed their families.

I’m OK with Barack because I think he has all the makings of a great president. He's sly, but he hides it. I see it occasionally. He can be devious, but he doesn't act that way because he's selling himself as this hopeful non-devious candidate. That’s why I’m a little bit comfortable with him.

He scares me because I don't know if he's Machiavellian enough to be a good leader yet. Give him a few years in the senate to marinate and he will be.

At least, he better be. Every nation in the world is led by devious snakes. Leaders in this day and age have to be.

Globalization has made the world a much more dangerous place. Acephalous transnational criminal organizations are currently able to move personnel and materiel from place to place faster than the CIA because the US government has to respect the sovereignty of other nations, and the criminals care nothing for the law.

Only about 14% of the worlds small arms are in the hands of government controlled forces. The rest are in the hands of gangsters, rebels, and criminals who thankfully spend more time trying to kill each other than they do trying to kill innocents. Because the soviet governments entire economy was based on lies to avoid death or prison, we have no idea how many nuclear weapons were manufactured by the soviets after 1950. There are only two ways we can know if nukes are floating around in the hands of these groups: when the ATF interdicts two Albanians trying to sell them to south american narco terrorists, or, god forbid, when one has just been used by those assholes against civilians somewhere.

The devious assholes in power in the third world take kickbacks from these groups because it’s easier to become corrupt and take the money of evil men then it is to stand for justice in the third world when the people you’re standing against have skilled sharpshooters and military sniper rifles that can shoot through armored windows.

The community of nations called the UN is nothing but masturbation on an international scale. We only intervene in genocides if there are white people living in the country where the genocide is occurring because the Europeans, Americans, and Pakistanis don't want their soldiers dying on the behalf of black Africans. We don't enforce the Genocide Convention or the Universal Declaration of human rights because all it is is international masturbation. We don’t care, but we want people to think we do. The five most aggressive nations of this half of the twentieth century were China, the US, the UK, France, and Russia. They invaded more countries, used intelligence services to topple more governments, and they account for %98 of the world arms trade. Each of these nations have some of the worst human rights track records in history. They get away with it because they’re the fucking permanent veto seats on the UN Security council.

The UN is designed to keep those five nations in power and punish any other nation that rises to threaten that power.

To top it all of, the people in power everywhere are devious scumbags. You can't be a good person if you desire the power of such offices enough to do what it takes to get into positions of power. Obama has never had to get down and dirty in an election, and so he has a unique product to sell, but if he's selling this product of Change and actually believes it can work, if he believes that there are leaders out there he can trust, then he's fooling himself.

The job of the president, constitutionally, is to deal with everyone else's devious assholes and keep them from shooting at us. The only way you can see a change in that office is if there is a change of every commander in chief, everywhere, to someone just like Obama. Otherwise he'll be the massive failure that Jimmy Carter was, or he'll learn how to be devious.

You're still talking like you think this is Kickball.

It's not. It's evil, it's horrid, and people die alone in dark alleyways every day so that people living stateside can live this comfortable idealized life and not worry about the dirty crap that happens to keep them safe and keep the american empire intact. Or should I say: to force the rest of the world to abide by a European worldview.

And I know you're not Naiive. You've been to Iraq, haven't you? You know that the world isn't gumballs and butterflies. You probably know it better than I do.

Politics is worse. At least the military has some concept of honor. At least the veterans that I talk to say that it's about protecting civilians and lofty goals like that.

The politicians know that it's about maintaining European Primacy. Ever since the invention of the ship, there has been some kind of hegemonic power that everyone else feared. If it's not America, it's going to be someone else, and I‘d rather it be us in a filthy world like this one than some other guy who has different values than mine.

Yes, there's image to consider, and Barack Obama understands that fact much better than that idiot Dubyah and he can play a damn fine image game, but the fact of history and the fact of economics is that someone will rule. Everyone's gunning for the man on top, and right now that's us.

Now I'm a Democrat because I believe in mixing Capitalism with Socialism, respecting the political and civil rights of the individual, and being smart about defending European primacy. We spread those French enlightenment governmental concepts that our society is built like the fertile manure it is. And yes, democracy as a political system is a fertile manure that breeds the kind of scumbags that make good politicians just as well as any other system. It also breeds some significantly better produce than any other kind of fertilizing filth. As democrats, we use cruise missiles and air strikes on the countries that act up so that the news cameras are afraid of getting hit by a stray bomb and don’t take pictures of dying civilians, and then we give massive economic benefits to the countries whose devious assholes cave in and start having elections and allowing freedom of the press.

But building a world that is democratic isn't a clean business because of the people involved, and I think you know this.

Even events that make the world a better place almost always take Deviousness and a high body count to accomplish. Martin had Malcom and the Panthers. Ghandi had Nehru.

Jesus and Bhudda weren't politicians. And look what happened to the Pacifist Humanitarians called Christians when Constantine declared Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire. Look at what happens when a beautiful and peaceful religion like Islam turns into a method of political control. Look what happens when you take an injured and hurting Jewish nation and give them a country of their own. Look at what happened to the Philosophies of Karl Marx, that ethical view that every human being had the undeniable right to gain from the labor he or she did, and look what happened to that philosophy when the Russians, Chinese, and Cambodians in the Khmer Rouge got ahold of it!

Whenever you take something or someone good and ethical and mix them or it in with politics, the result isn't something good or ethical. It's like mixing a fine wine into a bucket of vomit. The vomit won't change much, and the wine is ruined.

If Obama really is this wonderful idealist you think he is, just wait eight years and he won't be anymore. He's selling you a product because it works as an election tactic. And if he's not, if he truly believes this,

If you want sweetness and light, get religion. Politics has always been a dirty business, and it always will be.

You can’t suddenly change the direction of thousands of years of human history. This thing is too big to be stopped right now, and one man cannot change all of this.

But the reason I’m going to vote for him if he’s the democratic nominee is because I think that he’s a veteran of the filthy Chicago politics that have consumed Illinois, he’s mired in the dirt of Machiavellian thought, and He’ll do what’s necessary even if he knows how to keep up appearances.

The reason I won't vote for John McCain is because his foreign policy is idiocy. There's no subtlety or tact to the Bush\McCain approach. The idiot republicans stick our military's neck out on the chopping block and the denizens of the third world who have been abused by the constant fighting between the permanent members of the UN security council will always be willing to drop the axe, or the scimitar in this case. Republicans talk a good game when it comes to international security, but they suck at execution.

Every political system that ever existed or ever will exist is garbage. Democracy is manure, and it leads to popular assholes getting elected. But it’s fertile and it helps societies bloom and flourish. The fruits of democracy are free expression, the right to property, education, and many other wonderful things, but you need that manure of politics to make those good things happen.

The best you can hope for is an asshole devious enough to be able to get the things you want accomplished. That's why Al Gore got out of the damn mess. That's why Edwards has decided that he's going to work on the issue of poverty in the same way that Al Gore did.

That's why Edwards didn't endorse Clinton, though he might if she shows she can win some primaries.

So stop whining about things that will never change. This is politics. There is no honor here.

Quote:
Weren't you an idealist, Acheron? What happened?


I am an Idealist about things you can be idealistic about.

I believe that the American people are genuinely good people who will hang the assholes in power out to dry effectively.

If you want to do good, do good through The Red Cross, Amnesty International, The Red Crescent, UMCOR, or one of those other groups that do good work.

Yes, I believe that there is hope, that there is redemption, that the world can be made a better place, but it won't be made a better place by politicians.

I believe in a universalist utopia that can be achieved. I believe in building the kingdom of god where men and women of every nation and every faith see themselves as citizens of the human race primarily, and citizens of individual states second.

But it won't be achieved by governments who spend so much time squabbling for power. Governments are just a necessary evil.

When that utopia is built it will have been built by Humanitarians, Churches, Mosques, atheists in professorial robes, and good honest normal people who band together as part of movements to force the politics along.

If you want change, work with those people who are standing for a better tomorrow. Find an organization that is working hard to fix these problems. Vote for people who will do a good job of these things, and then retire them when the evil of power corrupts them.

Take that organization and help it band together with other organizations until a network of humanity is formed that ensures that people who are truly good are elected everywhere at once.

It will not be one man who talks a good game who changes things, it will be a movement. It will be all of us, together. It will be the people who Obama is attracting who work to make things better.

It won't be an act of congress or an executive order. So you see, I am an idealist, but I understand the reality of politics. There is no salvation in government. Go elsewhere, and you will find it. And I don't just mean churches because there are other groups who do great good, but in America it is churches.

Seek and you really will find. Just don't look for it in politics.
"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." -IF Stone
This reply was last edited on 04-30-08 05:18:42 PM by Acheron.
Guy Tuttle and Ass
Global Moderator

gotta get that VICTORY ROYALE #gamer #memes #LoL

Ballkicks: (+1782 / -130)
Posts: 15966 (2.362)
Reg. Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Gender: Male
Reply 21 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-30-08 05:06:17 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

holy shit
Acheron
INTL Premium Member
If I die in Raleigh, at least I will die free.

is this guy acheron???????? hahaha acheron you big fag

Ballkicks: (+224 / -116)
Posts: 1538 (0.255)
Reg. Date: Mar 2004
Location: Miami
Gender: Male
Reply 22 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-30-08 05:13:02 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Quoted from ice:
holy shit


Yeah, I know. I'm a walking contradiction.
"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." -IF Stone
Pertti Susilainen
Head Priest

mr. sukkit

Ballkicks: (+924 / -57)
Posts: 7104 (1.094)
Reg. Date: Dec 2002
Location: Mayrit
Gender: Male
Reply 23 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-30-08 05:17:11 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Hey ice now you have to write a paragraph-by-paragraph rebuttal.
Šonne onwęcneš eft wineleas guma, gesihš him biforan fealwe wegas, bažian brimfuglas, brędan fežra, hreosan hrim ond snaw hagle gemenged. Žonne beoš žy hefigran heortan benne, sare ęfter swęsne. Sorg biš geniwad žonne maga gemynd mod geondhweorfeš, greteš gliwstafum, georne geondsceawaš secga geseldan; swimmaš oft on weg. Fleotendra ferš no žęr fela bringeš cušra cwidegiedda.
The Wanderer, l. 45-55a
Acheron
INTL Premium Member
If I die in Raleigh, at least I will die free.

is this guy acheron???????? hahaha acheron you big fag

Ballkicks: (+224 / -116)
Posts: 1538 (0.255)
Reg. Date: Mar 2004
Location: Miami
Gender: Male
Reply 24 of 49 (Originally posted on: 04-30-08 05:21:32 PM)
Edit Post | Edit History | Send PM | Change Title | Reply w/Quote | Report Post | Ignore | Show All Posts

Quoted from Sukkit:
Hey ice now you have to write a paragraph-by-paragraph rebuttal.


I didn't realize how... long that post was until I was finished.

And I do want to add that I like Ice even though I know he disagrees with alot of what I think. I'm looking forward to a response because I know that he at least thinks this stuff through.
"All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." -IF Stone
Quick Reply
Page: [ 1 2 ] Reply to Thread | Create New Thread | Create New Poll | Convert To Poll | Subscribe To Thread
[ Thread Views: 2253 | Total Posts: 49 ]