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Dante

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(Originally posted on: 01-29-06 12:30:40 PM)
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The Bush Administration’s post-9/11 domestic eavesdropping program that was revealed last month must make us remain cautious, if not extremely worried. Shortly after the September 11th terrorist attacks, The National Security Agency began to eavesdrop without court warrants on Americans suspected of communicating with terrorists overseas. The idea of limiting our personal privacy in order to protect America is dangerously close to missing the entire point, however, because the ideals and freedoms we value in our country are being jeopardized in the process.

In many ways, we are “destroying the village to save it.” Such doublespeak becomes necessary when trying to comprehend the convoluted ideas behind the NSA wiretapping program.


America’s Bill of Rights protects our right to privacy very explicitly. Anyone who has been through 8th grade knows the purpose of the first 10 Amendments, which were conceived in a time very much different from our own. There were no phones to tap back then, no computers to monitor; yet our forefathers still could see a threat to democracy very clearly in the form of an opaque, authoritarian government. They had experienced one first hand under the tyranny of England’s central government, and understood the need to guard the people of the United States against unwarranted invasions of privacy. The 4th Amendment couldn’t make this any clearer, deeming unreasonable and unwarranted searches illegal. Privacy, along with a right to free speech, was deemed an essential elements in making their hard-won experiment in democracy last. The core of our values as a nation can be seen in the Bill of Rights: freedom at the expense of majority rule, and personal privacy at the expense of governmental power.


Fear should not be allowed to dominate American domestic policy. From McCarthyism in the 50's, going as far back as the Sedition Act of 1798, it is easy to see that nothing good can come to civil liberties in a democracy when it starts to allow fear and mob rule to prevail in it’s decision-making. By giving our government too much power now, we may turn it accidentally into an enemy of its own ideals.


As Americans, we cannot let terrorism become a faceless and constant threat. We must understand that while the events of 9/11 were horrible acts of murder, the effective method of fighting terrorism without giving up essential civil liberties is to reach out to the Arab world, not strike back blindly. We must now make it our policy to attempt to heal this divide between the U.S. and the Middle East that many Americans didn’t see until it was too late.


It appears that America lies on the verge of realizing the importance of protecting our right to privacy as a nation. The PATRIOT Act’s renewal was blocked by Congress, and it is set to expire again in February. The response to the NSA wiretapping program has been unabashedly negative. And in late January protestors at Georgetown University donned the black hoods of prisoners from Abu Gharib, and interrupted the day’s speaker, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales. The protestors quoted Benjamin Franklin on the poster they held up: “Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.”
This reply was last edited on 01-29-06 08:02:43 PM by Dante.
Bon

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Reply 1 of 29 (Originally posted on: 01-29-06 12:55:00 PM)
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Freedom doesn't exist.
Bleach your mind of illusion.
Then think about the future.

“Was der Tod der Elf einmal bedeuten wird, vermögen heute nur wenige zu ahnen — noch weniger kann ich darüber schreiben. Wir stehen mitten in einer grossen Zeitenwende. Was wir alle durchmachen sind ihre Geburtswehen. Alles scheint negativ — und einmal wird dann doch Neues and Grosses geboren werden....”

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Reply 2 of 29 (Originally posted on: 01-29-06 01:45:16 PM)
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Bon, for some reason I'm not terribly surprised that your opinion is based around an article found on a site titled 'anus.com'.

As for Dante's essay, not badly written, but a little late. Most of the facts are known, and sadly, accepted. It is frighteningly similar to 1984. The point was made, though.
"One time I spilled ice cream on my pants and we had to throw them out."
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Skye
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Reply 3 of 29 (Originally posted on: 01-29-06 06:10:44 PM)
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I don't have any more books with the Constitution in it, but there is a provision in Article One that gives the president to suspend certain rights during times of war, including habeas corpus and privacy rights. I'll Google it to make sure, though...
http://forums.interestingnonetheless.net/display.php?tid=4368

Doesn't the manatee kind of look like a guest on the Ricki Lake show? "Uh, Ricki, I'm here because I'm endangered." Then one of those mean people in the audience would offer up the advice, "Yeah, I want to say something to the sea pig!" "That's sea cow." "Whatever. Sea pig, you gotta get yourself an education and a job!" "Uh, I live in the ocean." "It just so happens you live in the ocean 'cuz you ain't got no job!" "I don't know what you're -" "You gotta get in Weight Watchers, some kinda program!" "I have a layer of blubber to keep my body warm in the water..." "Whatever, talk to the hand." "I dont have a hand!"
Dante

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Reply 4 of 29 (Originally posted on: 01-29-06 07:55:20 PM)
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Quoted from Skye:
I don't have any more books with the Constitution in it, but there is a provision in Article One that gives the president to suspend certain rights during times of war, including habeas corpus and privacy rights. I'll Google it to make sure, though...
Congress is the only government agency that has the power to declare war. It never did so in the case of Iraq, and hasn't for about 40 years.
jimmy
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Reply 5 of 29 (Originally posted on: 01-29-06 10:06:57 PM)
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That would make this a bad place to talk about how I forgot to file my tax return three years ago then, right?
goatsnacks
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Reply 6 of 29 (Originally posted on: 01-31-06 03:03:11 PM)
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They can listen to the thread all they want they aren't going to hear anythingomg yah rite fag lol
My little website i'm a serial-killer :)
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Reply 7 of 29 (Originally posted on: 01-31-06 03:05:51 PM)
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The government has too much money. Excess money leads to corruption. Take that!
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Reply 8 of 29 (Originally posted on: 01-31-06 03:09:45 PM)
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Quoted from Jose Rizal:
The government has too much money. Excess money leads to corruption. Take that!
What about Bill Gates?
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superstar satisfaction

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Reply 9 of 29 (Originally posted on: 01-31-06 03:31:51 PM)
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Although some problems with government are caused by 'bad people,' most people don't go into government to enrich themselves or to fuck things up. Groupthink mentality and the subculture that develops in the government is more at fault.
Dante

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Reply 10 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-02-06 01:51:48 PM)
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Quoted from superstar satisfaction:
Although some problems with government are caused by 'bad people,' most people don't go into government to enrich themselves or to fuck things up. Groupthink mentality and the subculture that develops in the government is more at fault.
So...It's the fault of...political parties?
Hoff
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Reply 11 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-02-06 02:57:55 PM)
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Quoted from Dante:
We must understand that while the events of 9/11 were horrible acts of murder, the effective method of fighting terrorism without giving up essential civil liberties is to reach out to the Arab world, not strike back blindly. We must now make it our policy to attempt to heal this divide between the U.S. and the Middle East that many Americans didn’t see until it was too late.


Sure we would like to reach out to the Arab and make peace. However, you can't just stop protecting ourselves. Terrorists will not stop their fight just because the US pulls out of Iraq. If we pull out of Iraq now, that would only cause more hatred and distrust from the middle east. Its important we stay and make Iraq secure and a Democratic place for its people to live. Thats how how we will eventually make peace. How would you suggest reaching out to the Arab world while protecting ourselves at the same time? I would rather the Government be more involved in protecting US. That is what the government is for afterall, to protect the people. All of you liberal hippies out there need to get off the weed because it is making you overly paranoid. Sure there is a point where the government can cross the line, but in my opinion it is nowhere near there.
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Reply 12 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-02-06 04:08:43 PM)
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The administration expects us to believe on good faith that we are safer because of what they have been doing, since requests for hard data are turned away with the catch-all explanation that revealing them would somehow undermine national security. I find it very suspect when the president talks about all the terror plots his new system has foiled, and then refuses to elaborate on a single one. Surely the bright minds behind all this could figure out some way to give everyone a few details without giving away any compromising information. Summarizing and paraphrasing aren't that hard, guys - remember, you had to do it in school when you wrote book reports!

It's not paranoid to press one's leaders for proof that their policy is the best one - it's smart! If the government can justify its behavior, then it's fine, but if it consistently refuses to explain itself clearly and validate its position with facts, that is indeed cause for concern.
Dante

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Reply 13 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-02-06 04:50:31 PM)
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Quoted from Hoff:
Quoted from Dante:
We must understand that while the events of 9/11 were horrible acts of murder, the effective method of fighting terrorism without giving up essential civil liberties is to reach out to the Arab world, not strike back blindly. We must now make it our policy to attempt to heal this divide between the U.S. and the Middle East that many Americans didn’t see until it was too late.


Sure we would like to reach out to the Arab and make peace. However, you can't just stop protecting ourselves. Terrorists will not stop their fight just because the US pulls out of Iraq. If we pull out of Iraq now, that would only cause more hatred and distrust from the middle east. Its important we stay and make Iraq secure and a Democratic place for its people to live. Thats how how we will eventually make peace.
If you expect a democracy to just "pop up" in Iraq, you are out of your mind.

For the past 300 years, Americans have been trumpeting our brand of democracy, and have inducted it into the core of our culture. The Middle East, however, never had the clean slate that the Western world had when working out its experimental republic.

Old alliances and hatreds, thousands of years old, still run deep in Arabic culture. However, America was a fresh melding of many different peoples and newborn Enlightenment ideals. Unless a culture is united behind its quest for democracy, it will never work. A republic run by "Bayonet Rule" is not a republic.


Quoted from Hoff:
How would you suggest reaching out to the Arab world while protecting ourselves at the same time? I would rather the Government be more involved in protecting US. That is what the government is for afterall, to protect the people.
What did invading Iraq protect us from?

You're using Yellow Ribbons and blind patriotism to block out the fact that the goals of this war were not met, and that it was an atrocity upon the Iraqi people.


Quoted from Hoff:
All of you liberal hippies out there need to get off the weed because it is making you overly paranoid. Sure there is a point where the government can cross the line, but in my opinion it is nowhere near there.
If you don't vigorously defend your freedoms, they will disappear.

Americans penchant for doing this is what has led to them lasting this long in the first place.


And don't forget that the powers of the executive branch have grown exponentially when compared to what the founding fathers intended.
The balance and separation of powers have been shifted, so that should make everyone even more leery.
This reply was last edited on 02-02-06 07:35:42 PM by Dante.
jimmy
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Reply 14 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-02-06 05:04:19 PM)
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The Government doesn't like your tone of voice.
artzilla
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Reply 15 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-02-06 08:16:25 PM)
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I'm not afraid of them. Everything that they could do to me they have already done. So I don't scare so easily anymore. And furthermore: Speaking of 9-11, if they were not complicit in the act itself, they were well aware of it WAY before it happened. As far as I am concerned, the internet still has The 1st ammendment behind it. Look at all the porn, and all the chickenhawks, attempting to score with under age children. And who is profiteering from this war anyway? Not you or I!! But Haliburton is making BILLIONS.BLING BLING NIGGA! Hey "Cheney, got any spare change??LOLOLOLOLLOLOL!!!!~21~` You may not agree with Bon but he is pretty much right, freedom is a thing of the past, a long fore gone ideal.....
Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is a gift, that's why they call it the "present", make the most of it!
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Reply 16 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-02-06 08:29:53 PM)
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Quoted from Dante:
Quoted from Hoff:
Quoted from Dante:
We must understand that while the events of 9/11 were horrible acts of murder, the effective method of fighting terrorism without giving up essential civil liberties is to reach out to the Arab world, not strike back blindly. We must now make it our policy to attempt to heal this divide between the U.S. and the Middle East that many Americans didn’t see until it was too late.


Sure we would like to reach out to the Arab and make peace. However, you can't just stop protecting ourselves. Terrorists will not stop their fight just because the US pulls out of Iraq. If we pull out of Iraq now, that would only cause more hatred and distrust from the middle east. Its important we stay and make Iraq secure and a Democratic place for its people to live. Thats how how we will eventually make peace.
If you expect a democracy to just "pop up" in Iraq, you are out of your mind.

For the past 300 years, Americans have been trumpeting our brand of democracy, and have inducted it into the core of our culture. The Middle East, however, never had the clean slate that the Western world had when working out its experimental republic.

Old alliances and hatreds, thousands of years old, still run deep in Arabic culture. However, America was a fresh melding of many different peoples and newborn Enlightenment ideals. Unless a culture is united behind its quest for democracy, it will never work. A republic run by "Bayonet Rule" is not a republic.


Quoted from Hoff:
How would you suggest reaching out to the Arab world while protecting ourselves at the same time? I would rather the Government be more involved in protecting US. That is what the government is for afterall, to protect the people.
What did invading Iraq protect us from?

You're using Yellow Ribbons and blind patriotism to block out the fact that the goals of this war were not met, and that it was an atrocity upon the Iraqi people.


Quoted from Hoff:
All of you liberal hippies out there need to get off the weed because it is making you overly paranoid. Sure there is a point where the government can cross the line, but in my opinion it is nowhere near there.
If you don't vigorously defend your freedoms, they will disappear.

Americans penchant for doing this is what has led to them lasting this long in the first place.


And don't forget that the powers of the executive branch have grown exponentially when compared to what the founding fathers intended.
The balance and separation of powers have been shifted, so that should make everyone even more leery.


You still avoided the must pressing question. Yes, questioning the government and keeping them in check is all well and good. But i am interested in what you think should be done. All i hear people do is bash on bush and the government. But i have never heard any of those people say what they think should be done. So answer me, how would you go about solving america's problem with terrorism and the middle east? I know it will take time, it wont happen over night. Everyone seems to think we are on the wrong path, but lost their compass, and cant tell me where/what the right path is. So please tell me what should be done. I will probably respect your opinions more if i know you arnt just blindly bashing the government, but actually have something productive to say.
Wherever the Speakers meet the Sneakers.....thats where you can always find me.
Dante

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Reply 17 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-02-06 09:00:31 PM)
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Quoted from Hoff:
Quoted from Dante:
Quoted from Hoff:
Sure we would like to reach out to the Arab and make peace. However, you can't just stop protecting ourselves. Terrorists will not stop their fight just because the US pulls out of Iraq. If we pull out of Iraq now, that would only cause more hatred and distrust from the middle east. Its important we stay and make Iraq secure and a Democratic place for its people to live. Thats how how we will eventually make peace.
If you expect a democracy to just "pop up" in Iraq, you are out of your mind.

For the past 300 years, Americans have been trumpeting our brand of democracy, and have inducted it into the core of our culture. The Middle East, however, never had the clean slate that the Western world had when working out its experimental republic.

Old alliances and hatreds, thousands of years old, still run deep in Arabic culture. However, Americawas a fresh melding of many different peoples and newborn Enlightenment ideals. Unless a culture is united behind its quest for democracy, it will never work. A republic run by "Bayonet Rule" is not a republic.

Quoted from Hoff:
How would you suggest reaching out to the Arab world while protecting ourselves at the same time? I would rather the Government be more involved in protecting US. That is what the government is for afterall, to protect the people.
What did invading Iraq protect us from?

You're using Yellow Ribbons and blind patriotism to block out the fact that the goals of this war were not met, and that it was an atrocity upon the Iraqi people.

Quoted from Hoff:
All of you liberal hippies out there need to get off the weed because it is making you overly paranoid. Sure there is a point where the government can cross the line, but in my opinion it is nowhere near there.
If you don't vigorously defend your freedoms, they will disappear.

Americans penchant for doing this is what has led to them lasting this long in the first place.


And don't forget that the powers of the executive branch have grown exponentially when compared to what the founding fathers intended.
The balance and separation of powers have been shifted, so that should make everyone even more leery.


You still avoided the must pressing question. Yes, questioning the government and keeping them in check is all well and good. But i am interested in what you think should be done. All i hear people do is bash on bush and the government. But i have never heard any of those people say what they think should be done. So answer me, how would you go about solving america's problem with terrorism and the middle east? I know it will take time, it wont happen over night. Everyone seems to think we are on the wrong path, but lost their compass, and cant tell me where/what the right path is. So please tell me what should be done. I will probably respect your opinions more if i know you arnt just blindly bashing the government, but actually have something productive to say.
I already said it:
Quoted from myself:
the effective method of fighting terrorism without giving up essential civil liberties is to reach out to the Arab world
So, now that you've read it, let me state what I would do specifcally:

#1 - Everyone should try to understand why people are blowing themselves up to terrorize our country... There were causes to 9/11. It was not random. Bin Laden outlined numerous grievances against the United States in 1998, such as our military bases in his homeland of Saudi Arabia, and support of the Saudi monarchy. He declared a jihad against America three years before the attack on New York. Step one was moving our bases out of Saudi Arabia last year.

#2 - We need to stop fucking with Middle Eastern politics...in many ways similar to #1. No more supporting the Saudi monarchy. No more supporting Israel over Palestine. They have enough weapons to blow up the world (let alone the West Bank). Peace negotiator and moderator should be our only role. No sides should be taken.


#3 - We need to ween ourselves off of oil, mainly so we can manage #2. I would support nuclear power if I could be positive we can protect it. Solar panels, Hydrogen fuel cells and wind power all are very promising. We went to the fucking moon. I'm sure if we put one 1/10th of Iraq's cost into builing a more effecient solar panel to put on the millions of American rooftops available, we could do it.

#4 - Let's get some social programs going in the Middle East. We need to spend our money helping Middle Easterners, rather then killing Iraqis. Let's build schools. Let's help the poor, held down by upper classes that maintain their power by selling the West oil. How about making friends, rather then enemies?
artzilla
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Reply 18 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-03-06 11:57:00 AM)
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We need to have a major restructuring of our own Government. Our forefathers warned us to STAY OUT of Foriegn AFFAIRS. Our National Debt is over 7 trillion dollars and growing exponentially every day. Nearly every third world country in the world OWNS a piece of the U.S. Look what is happening to Ford Motor Corp. And the Airline industry. We need to do away with The Federal Reserve and go back to the Gold standard. We need to fire every one that is in office right now that does not have OUR best interest at heart. Starting with the neocons, to me all they want to do is create a one world Government. Abolish the U.N. I do not think Globalization is the answer. Reminds me of the "Pinky and the Brain" animaniacs cartoon. Pinky: "What are we going to do tonight Brain?" Brain: "Same thing we do every night Pinky, TRY AND TAKE OVER THE WORLD!" Amusing. Why are we in Iraq? "Weapons of Mass Destruction" Ok, then came all the rhetoric about getting bad information from ?Intelligence? Now they changed the reason to Bringing them Democracy. Say what? It's all about oil. Did they ask us to bring them Democracy? It's a quagmire and really I don't have any answers. Being a viet nam vet I am truly opposed to this war. Although I do support our troops. My son has two more months over there, on his 3rd tour. Our Government is corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Keep your eyes on Iran. They want to destroy Isreal. This could be the precursor to WW3. Again, I really don't know. I hope there is something left for you young people to repair. I put my hope in your generation.
Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is a gift, that's why they call it the "present", make the most of it!
This reply was last edited on 02-03-06 01:04:12 PM by artzilla.
jimmy
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Reply 19 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-03-06 01:46:46 PM)
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To me, government has become exactly like this thread. All talk, no action.
Acheron
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is this guy acheron???????? hahaha acheron you big fag

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Reply 20 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-03-06 05:47:58 PM)
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Quoted from bon:
Anus.com link.


That article was one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Parents don't want "Freedom from drugs" they want security.

Freedom means lack of restriction, there is no "Freedom" of cheap oil. That's something else entirely.

As far as Dante's article is concerned, not bad.
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Reply 21 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-03-06 05:58:24 PM)
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You've missed the point, you're pointing out discrepancies i n the authors word choice, when they are obviously speaking abstractly.
Bleach your mind of illusion.
Then think about the future.

“Was der Tod der Elf einmal bedeuten wird, vermögen heute nur wenige zu ahnen — noch weniger kann ich darüber schreiben. Wir stehen mitten in einer grossen Zeitenwende. Was wir alle durchmachen sind ihre Geburtswehen. Alles scheint negativ — und einmal wird dann doch Neues and Grosses geboren werden....”

RUDOLF HESS
Dante

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Reply 22 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-05-06 08:56:00 PM)
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Quoted from Bon:
You've missed the point, you're pointing out discrepancies i n the authors word choice, when they are obviously speaking abstractly.
Freedom exists. Its core is individualism.
Master

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Reply 23 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-07-06 03:09:04 PM)
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Ive always been pretty paranoid about the govt listening to me becuase my dad was in the NSA for 30 years. He wont tell me what he did so I can only assume the govt is keeping tabs on him to make sure he doesnt talk.

Im wearing a tin-foil hat right now.
Acheron
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If I die in Raleigh, at least I will die free.

is this guy acheron???????? hahaha acheron you big fag

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Reply 24 of 29 (Originally posted on: 02-07-06 03:50:21 PM)
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Quoted from Bon:
You've missed the point, you're pointing out discrepancies i n the authors word choice, when they are obviously speaking abstractly.


What the hell do you mean he was speaking abstractly? The guy talks like a philosopher with statements like "X can be defined as-" and he's being pseudointellectual.

I dont agree with his social definitions or his definitions of harm. The fool shows little understanding of even the most basic ethical theories.
"Ah Florida... just think! Somewhere in this state, Jeb Bush is eating a live puppy."
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