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frosty
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(Originally posted on: 01-21-06 12:07:36 PM)
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Following on from the discussion in BB about the board being "clinically dead" and generally unwelcoming, I'd humbly suggest taking a more lenient line on bannings - people might stick around longer if they weren't banned for their first offence. After all, it's not like there's any shortage of competition for messageboards on the internet, and once you've been banned after one post, you're extremely unlikely to twiddle your thumbs for a few week until the same unfriendly bastards let you back in; you'll just find another one.

I know the (*hushed, reverent tone*) terms of service are held in high esteem around here, and I acceot that within reason this is a good thing, but maybe they should be applied more leniently to first-timers.

I mean, come on, how many times do you actually read stuff like that in full? Do you read the epilepsy warning on every video game before you install it? Do you check the allergy advice on every packet of peanuts before you consume? It's a cultural fact of modern western society that disclaimers are an irritating waste of time, and everyone ignores them accordingly. "Terms of service? Ah,whatever, don't be racist, don't post child pron, I've heard it all before...." Perhaps people should be allowed one violation - at which point they should be reminded of the TOS in no uncertain terms - before banning.

Again, I'm not whinging about my own inception or banning, as I've no valid complaints to make in either case - in my case I read the TOS, but didn't really pay much attnetion as initally I wasn't planning on sticking around.

However, flicking though the Hall of Shame (always a laugh) there are quite a few "Hi I'm new" threads from people who sound perfectly nice and reasonable. I agree that such threads are pointless and the HOS is the best place for them, but maybe they shouldn't warrent an instant weeks' ban, seeing as on the whole they're done in good faith rather than as a deliberate attempt to be annyoing.

Just a thought.
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Reply 1 of 19 (Originally posted on: 01-21-06 04:49:34 PM)
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Frosty, just because some obnoxious fuck who's been here a few weeks says the forum is "clinically dead" doesn't actually mean it's true. Forum activity fluctuates and there's nothing different about it now then there was 3 years ago.

There hasn't been a 'high I'm new' thread for a long time, maybe if you'd looked around a bit longer you'd see that the only people banned for their first post are usually selling stuff and wouldn't stick around anyway.

INTL does hold new people to a certain standard but it's far lower these days then it used to be. Also, vervet has already said that the mods have been told to be more lenient with new people. The only people who get an unfriendly welcome are fucking idiots, and enough of them still manage to stick around.

There's nothing out of the ordinary in the TOS. The whole thing could be summed up by 'use your common sense'. There's no secret rules to be aware of like in SA so I really don't see the problem.

I think the reason people tend not to stick around is because of the newbie avatar. They might as well be anonomous and it means that after they get enough posts for a proper avatar they effectivly have to start establishing who they are all over again.
frosty
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Reply 2 of 19 (Originally posted on: 01-21-06 05:47:25 PM)
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Quote:
Frosty, just because some obnoxious fuck who's been here a few weeks says the forum is "clinically dead" doesn't actually mean it's true. Forum activity fluctuates and there's nothing different about it now then there was 3 years ago.


I'm sure you're right, but the theme of the forum needing "saved" and generally not being as good as it was has come up a few times, and it's not like I've really been digging. I'm not saying I'm going to "save" it, I'm just raising the issue of a low n00b retention rate in the appropriate place and airing a couple of ideas.

Quote:
There hasn't been a 'high I'm new' thread for a long time, maybe if you'd looked around a bit longer you'd see that the only people banned for their first post are usually selling stuff and wouldn't stick around anyway.


Again, perhaps there hasn't, but if you flick through the HOS, you'll see three or four of these threads from people who sound well-meaning enough. As I said, such threads are pointless and binning them is a good idea, but maybe you don't need to ban these people for an entire week; just warn them or something. Idiots who are trying to sell stuff are a different manner.

Quote:
INTL does hold new people to a certain standard but it's far lower these days then it used to be. Also, vervet has already said that the mods have been told to be more lenient with new people. The only people who get an unfriendly welcome are fucking idiots, and enough of them still manage to stick around.


I think most of your regulars would agree there's a certain amount of "hazing," which is by definition unpleasant. As I've said elsewhere though, hazing's fair enough and it's never going to go away, so I accept there's not much point in asking people to be nice, even if I wanted them to be.

Quote:
There's nothing out of the ordinary in the TOS. The whole thing could be summed up by 'use your common sense'. There's no secret rules to be aware of like in SA so I really don't see the problem.


The problem isn't so much with the TOS themselves - as you say, they're far from unreasonable - it's more the "one strike and you're out policy." In an ideal world everyone would read disclaimers/safety instructions/TOSs but, realistically, no-one ever does. This is going to result in a high casualty of rate of potentially good forumers. Basically all my argument in this thread boils down to is warn the innocent once - not all that radical. I take your point about one of the mods talking of being more lenient, so maybe there's somthing being done already.

Quote:
I think the reason people tend not to stick around is because of the newbie avatar. They might as well be anonomous and it means that after they get enough posts for a proper avatar they effectivly have to start establishing who they are all over again.


It is slightly obnoxious, but it's quite funny. For me, that's just part of the hazing process, although you're probably right that it puts a few sensitive souls off.

___________________________________________________

A second suggestion - which I'll post here as there's no point spamming in a new thread - would be to get rid of the serious discussions forum and incorporate it into the main room. As it stands, hardly anyone uses it, and the forum which people do use has a lot of threads with no actual discussion, so a merger might be a logical solution to both problems.

The idea of trying to keep spamming and flaming out of the serious discussions is commendable, but since those things are banned in the main forum anyway, there probably wouldn't be too much of a conflict of interest. It's possible that the quality of discussions might deteriorate very slightly, but I doubt anyone comes to this place for a serious debate anyway - there are other purpose-designed forums for that - so I don't think this would be stepping on anyone's toes too much.

_______________________________________________________

Anyway, these are only suggestions from an outsider's perspective, so feel free to pick holes, ridicule etc, but please don't go thinking I'm on a reforming crusade or anything...ultimately all I'm doing is posting a couple of ideas in the appropriate place, rather than diverting existing threads OT.

________________________________________________________

That will be all.
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Reply 3 of 19 (Originally posted on: 01-21-06 06:10:58 PM)
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Quoted from frosty:
I'm sure you're right, but the theme of the forum needing "saved" and generally not being as good as it was has come up a few times, and it's not like I've really been digging. I'm not saying I'm going to "save" it, I'm just raising the issue of a low n00b retention rate in the appropriate place and airing a couple of ideas.
The only time I remember anyone saying this is when awkward jimmy made this thread, which I think was made after FA came back, misjudged the mood of INTL and started banning people for stuff that's now acceptable. He was actually taking an opposite stance to yours. As for people saying it used to be better, I haven't really noticed but when I first joined everyone used to talk about a 'golden era' in 02 or something which stopped a long time ago.

Quote:
The problem isn't so much with the TOS themselves - as you say, they're far from unreasonable - it's more the "one strike and you're out policy." In an ideal world everyone would read disclaimers/safety instructions/TOSs but, realistically, no-one ever does. This is going to result in a high casualty of rate of potentially good forumers. Basically all my argument in this thread boils down to is warn the innocent once - not all that radical. I take your point about one of the mods talking of being more lenient, so maybe there's somthing being done already.
Vervet's an admin so yeah something is probably being done about it.
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Reply 4 of 19 (Originally posted on: 01-22-06 01:44:29 PM)
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The reason that there is a certain amount of hazing here is because we don't want every ignorant, annoying, teenager to come into our forum and consider it a home away from home.

If Jeff wanted an easy going happy-go-lucky forum, he could probably have done such. For most of us here there is something to be said about a quieter more familiar forum.

Frosty, if you want to "save" the forum continue to be an intelligent funny forum personality. If you feel up to it invite a few of your closer more intelligent friends to post in this forum. Please don't tell us what we want this forum to be like.
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frosty
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Reply 5 of 19 (Originally posted on: 01-23-06 08:32:52 AM)
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Mate, I specifically said I'm not setting myself out as "saving" the forum - I'mm just posting suggestions in the suggestions pile.
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Reply 6 of 19 (Originally posted on: 01-23-06 09:42:51 AM)
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Quoted from Bebop:
Frosty, just because some obnoxious fuck who's been here a few weeks says the forum is "clinically dead" doesn't actually mean it's true.


Quoted from Tonto_johnlee. Originally posted on: 12-09-05 01:03:59 PM.:
Why is this forum clinically dead?


Quoted from Bebop:
INTL does hold new people to a certain standard but it's far lower these days then it used to be.


Quoted from mmac. Originally posted on: 12-10-05 02:29:38 PM:
Sometimes I think we should be nicer to the newbies so that we can get more fresh blood.

Sometimes people like buddah come into the forum.

I hate newbs.


Quoted from STFU:
newbies, look how stupid you sound when you dont lurk


Quoted from greenidentity. Originally posted on: 12-11-05 01:49:13 AM:
Everyone who is being an ass needs to shut up, I haven't seen any of you contribute anything nearly as interesting as this for ages. His answers are interesting at least.


Quoted from Bebop:
There's nothing out of the ordinary in the TOS. The whole thing could be summed up by 'use your common sense'. There's no secret rules to be aware of like in SA so I really don't see the problem.


Quoted from Snowy:
You guys who love attacking newbies are getting a chance to stretch your legs and those of us who are more curious when it comes to new meat get a chance to interact. I'm sure the sky wont fall just because a perky Russian has mounted the INTL steppes and made a thread. A pretty active thread, too.


Quoted from Bebop:
I think the reason people tend not to stick around is because of the newbie avatar. They might as well be anonomous and it means that after they get enough posts for a proper avatar they effectivly have to start establishing who they are all over again.


Quoted from IF0:
I'm more pissed that I'm being forced to agree with Snowy and GI.

Sometimes it's interesting to see another perspective that doesn't feel the need to try to be funny at all costs, because a lot of the times... that results in not being funny. Newbie-hunting seems to be the popular sport here, and that's fine when the newbie sucks, but a lot of the times it happens after a few posts. I get tired of the same posting styles all the time, the same old "burns," the same jokes, the same whining, the same words, the same sarcasm, etc. I'm sorry if you don't. But any newbie worth having around will learn to ignore it like everybody else does and stick around anyways, so it works out in the end a lot of the time regardless.


Only I don't think anybody worth having around would stick around in case he/she's not so stubborn as I am.

Quoted from STFU:
Quoted from Buddha:


Not now, baby. Sorry.


frosty 2.0


lolz.

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You must wait another 2 days to give this user more karma.
Sorry, Frosty.
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This reply was last edited on 01-23-06 10:22:30 AM by Buddha.
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Reply 7 of 19 (Originally posted on: 01-24-06 07:40:47 PM)
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The reason INTL is worth saving is because it is so intimate.

Just about everyone has posted a picture at one point or another, and just about everyone has been here for a year or longer.

It is unique in a lot of ways. The net is full of shitty, faceless forums filled with boring, humorless people making predictable and unamusing posts.

The fact that we don't have 20 forummers rushing out to make a thread everytime any old, B-list celebrity dies is not necessarily a bad thing, dammit.

If this site is going to grow, it should do so while keeping with the rules that have made it what it is, the ones that have kept a surprising level of quality.
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Reply 8 of 19 (Originally posted on: 01-29-06 08:52:16 PM)
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Quote:
A second suggestion - which I'll post here as there's no point spamming in a new thread - would be to get rid of the serious discussions forum and incorporate it into the main room. As it stands, hardly anyone uses it, and the forum which people do use has a lot of threads with no actual discussion, so a merger might be a logical solution to both problems.

Bad, bad idea. In my opinion, anyway.
TGD was created for people to discuss certain topics that would otherwise be basically trampled or ignored elsewhere. Altough TGD isn't used as often as ID or RS (:rolleyesi'm a serial-killer :), it's not a worthless forum. Though TGD is a slow motion subforum, INTL on the whole is a slow motion forum. This isn't going to change by merging the two.
Quote:
The idea of trying to keep spamming and flaming out of the serious discussions is commendable, but since those things are banned in the main forum anyway, there probably wouldn't be too much of a conflict of interest. It's possible that the quality of discussions might deteriorate very slightly, but I doubt anyone comes to this place for a serious debate anyway - there are other purpose-designed forums for that - so I don't think this would be stepping on anyone's toes too much.

In ID, a light to moderate amount of spamming and flaming is allowed as long as the post still contributes to the thread in some way. The likelihood of a thread like "Your Thoughts on Abortion" turning into an all out flame war (before mods stepping in, of course) is more likely than in an e/n, MSPaint, or even a news thread. It would otherwise disrupt ID activity and become frustrating for posters who do want to have intelligent conversation and debate, and eventually-if not immediately-the threads that would gain interest in TGD would fade away in ID, much like what happened with The Gallery.

PS. I like INTL the way it is, newb hazing and all. If I had to deal with it, everyone else better fucking deal with it.
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Reply 9 of 19 (Originally posted on: 01-29-06 10:19:07 PM)
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I read and agree with the initial post entirely.

Obviously ban the advertising assholes or the irritating fuckheads at the drop of a pin. However, for those who come here and genuinely accidentally fuck up (and it's pretty obvious to tell which people fall into each catagory), they should be given a chance to redeem themselves. New forummers are going to pick this place back up.
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Reply 10 of 19 (Originally posted on: 02-05-06 02:24:14 PM)
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Quoted from frosty:
low n00b retention rate

New people might stick around longer if you didn't use absolutely retarded internet slang terms like "n00b" to describe them. Any use of such a term for anything other than sarcastic purposes immediately marks the user as a fucking moron.
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Reply 11 of 19 (Originally posted on: 02-06-06 10:51:59 AM)
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I've heard the word noob used in so many different medias it is most definitely no longer internet slang.

Just thought I'd let you know. Because its so, so important.

To comment on the thread: This forum was way tougher back when I joined. I'm actually surprised at a lot of the newbies now days that are sticking around. Dante you can attest to that because if my memory serves me correctly you were very fond of titling me faggot when I first posted. MAGUSMAGUSMAGUSMAGUS
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is this guy acheron???????? hahaha acheron you big fag

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Reply 12 of 19 (Originally posted on: 02-07-06 11:42:56 AM)
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I'm one of the people here who's liked by a few, but tends to irritate others.

I've been warned plenty of times, because I haven't done anything that blatantly steps over the line.

When they banned you for your first offense, it was because you failed to read a sign over to the left that said "DO NOT USE THESE THREAD TAGS."

You were given a really lenient ban, because people liked you and wanted you to come back. Bans are usually temporary for minor offenses, hell, I've been banned for longer periods then you were.

It's a learning experience type thing. You get banned, you learn not to break the rules.

Edit: I've also been warned.

As far as my newbness, I portrayed the angry teenager bullshit. Partially because I thought the reactions of other forrumers were hilarious, and partially because I wanted a place to vent. Then, I stopped being an ass and started contributing to the forums. I think the hazing helps newbies learn how to post here, just like I did.
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Reply 13 of 19 (Originally posted on: 02-10-06 11:48:04 PM)
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I'm obviously a newb as my avatar states. I think that way things are run here are just great and fine the way they are. I kind of like being discriminated agaisnt for being a newb because it gives myself a challenge to prove to the veteran posters then i'm not just an obnoxious asshole trying to sell something but actually have something valuable to say. When i finally reach the amount of posts that allows me to change my avatar from newbie to whatever i choose i will feel like I have earned my place here at INTL. And that makes this forum different from any other, and that is what makes this forum worth sticking around in. Even though i havent been here that long, i like the way things are done. The strick bannings are what makes me want to stay because i know that the forum isnt filled with morons. I guess i'm saying that i'm proud of my newb avatar. I will wear it proud and take any hazing that you veterans may put me through to prove my worth to this forums unique quality and atmosphere.


-newbie, Hoff
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Reply 14 of 19 (Originally posted on: 02-11-06 03:47:12 PM)
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Quoted from Amphy:
It would otherwise disrupt ID activity and become frustrating for posters who do want to have intelligent conversation and debate, and eventually-if not immediately-the threads that would gain interest in TGD would fade away in ID, much like what happened with The Gallery.

Now that you mention it, wasn't the whole merging of The Gallery and ID an experiment? I remember Brad saying he agreed to restore The Gallery if it was evident arts couldn't survive in ID.
"Hwt, he on a tid e he inne bi, ne bi hrinen mid y storme s wintres; ac t bi an eagan bryhtm and t lste fc, ac he sona of wintre on one winter eft cyme hwt r foregange, oe hwt r fylige, we ne cunnen."
"Lo, he, in the time that he is inside, is not touched by the storm of the winter, but that is an eye's winking and the least time, but he straightway comes back from winter into winter, what thereto may precede or what to it may follow, we do not know."
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Reply 15 of 19 (Originally posted on: 02-12-06 01:02:05 PM)
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Quoted from Sukkit:
Quoted from Amphy:
It would otherwise disrupt ID activity and become frustrating for posters who do want to have intelligent conversation and debate, and eventually-if not immediately-the threads that would gain interest in TGD would fade away in ID, much like what happened with The Gallery.

Now that you mention it, wasn't the whole merging of The Gallery and ID an experiment? I remember Brad saying he agreed to restore The Gallery if it was evident arts couldn't survive in ID.

The only thing I fully recall Brad saying about the merge was that The Gallery by far had the lowest post count per day of any of the forums, at that was at least part of the reason the merge took place. But if he did say that--

:wtc:
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Reply 16 of 19 (Originally posted on: 02-12-06 02:53:13 PM)
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http://forums.interestingnonetheless.net/display.php?tid=21565&postid=436470#post436470

I don't know, perhaps he was shitting me.
"Hwt, he on a tid e he inne bi, ne bi hrinen mid y storme s wintres; ac t bi an eagan bryhtm and t lste fc, ac he sona of wintre on one winter eft cyme hwt r foregange, oe hwt r fylige, we ne cunnen."
"Lo, he, in the time that he is inside, is not touched by the storm of the winter, but that is an eye's winking and the least time, but he straightway comes back from winter into winter, what thereto may precede or what to it may follow, we do not know."
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Reply 17 of 19 (Originally posted on: 02-20-06 01:55:53 AM)
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While I disagree and think that we don't need to be more lenient, I will say that I appreciate that you're posting to try to better the forum with your suggestions.
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Reply 18 of 19 (Originally posted on: 02-21-06 01:33:01 PM)
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Quoted from Aaron:
Dante you can attest to that because if my memory serves me correctly you were very fond of titling me faggot when I first posted. MAGUSMAGUSMAGUSMAGUS
I was but a scared newbie myself, Goatman. <3

That, and you were pretty mean yourself MAGUSMAGUSMAGUSMAGUS
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Reply 19 of 19 (Originally posted on: 02-22-06 07:49:46 AM)
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Ohh. Sorry about that!
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