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mmac
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(Originally posted on: 01-14-06 10:51:47 PM)
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/14/teen.shot/index.html

Here's the abridged story.

1. A kid took a pistol to school.
2. He held another kid hostage, and threated to take his life several times.
3. He finished up the incident by running out, and pointing the pistol at a SWAT team member.
4. He got shot, and died.

I think that this shooting was perfectly justifiable, even though the article makes it sound like this kids dad will probably sue the city. I really think it's good that they were able to harvest his organs and give them to somebody that might actually contribute to the world.

how do you guys feel about this?
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Reply 1 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-14-06 11:20:45 PM)
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I think that kid was a fucking piece of shit, and deserves to die. If the father sues, I hope he loses all his money to court feas. The SWAT member has every reason to shoot.
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Reply 2 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-14-06 11:39:42 PM)
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Pretty severe to shoot the kid in the head. A child with a handgun isint going to be terribly accurate, a shot to the thigh would have disabled him efficiently enough. Also, the bald opening synopsis of the story fails to feature the important information:

2.5. Authorities informed that the gun is not real.

I understand about 'not taking any chances' but this was a child and the head is a smaller target to hit than the torso or leg.

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mmac
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Reply 3 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 12:16:56 AM)
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I don't know about the civilian world, but I could go to prison for violating the laws of war if I shoot somebody in the leg rather than the head.

And when half the people say it's real, and half say it's fake I would never take chances.
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Reply 4 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 01:14:04 AM)
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Quoted from Snowy:
Pretty severe to shoot the kid in the head. A child with a handgun isint going to be terribly accurate, a shot to the thigh would have disabled him efficiently enough.


I definately agree. So the kid had problems and decided to bring a fake gun to school? It in no way merits a death sentence. SWAT are wearing armor that protects what, like 95% of their body?

Stupid death. Shoot him in the thigh and get him some help.
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Reply 5 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 01:27:21 AM)
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Well, it was a sad situation, but his death was justified.

If an adult did the same thing (take hostages, point a weapon towards officers), shooting to kill would be a no-brainer (pun somewhat intended).


Maybe this was a good thing, considering how the world works in mysterious ways.

It's possible with a kid this fucked up that he would have grown up to molest little boys, or keep women locked in cages in his basement or something. Who the hell knows.
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Reply 6 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 01:34:08 AM)
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Quoted from Snowy:
I understand about 'not taking any chances' but this was a child and the head is a smaller target to hit than the torso or leg.


The head also makes a bigger mess. I bet the swat gunner had the thought "Headshot!" going through his mind when he was presented with a kid aiming a gun at people.

Computer games don't affect kids! I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music
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Reply 7 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 01:52:19 AM)
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Quoted from mmac:
I don't know about the civilian world


You can also kill without remorse. I hope your eventual return to civilian life doesnt see you up a bell tower at your university, firing at all the ''commie bastards'' who signed up for the Student Union.

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mmac
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Reply 8 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 02:05:06 AM)
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Quoted from Snowy:
Quoted from mmac:
I don't know about the civilian world


You can also kill without remorse. I hope your eventual return to civilian life doesnt see you up a bell tower at your university, firing at all the ''commie bastards'' who signed up for the Student Union.
I think you're confusing a sense of survival with a sense of remorse. I will always do my best to keep myself alive, and if you say you'd do otherwise you're either lying or ignorant.
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Reply 9 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 02:12:31 AM)
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Okay then, you're a person who voluntarily joined a profession that is basically about killing other people, so I dont think you're really an ideal candidate to be presenting a story about this. You're biased in that you'll always side with the guy in the kevlar behind a wall or car with a high powered handgun rather than the mixed up child with the pea shooter.

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mmac
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Reply 10 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 02:21:02 AM)
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WTF? I joined to do a job that works with electronics. If I was in some psychotic person who loves to kill other people I would have gone combat arms, probably ranger or special forces.

It doesn't matter who it is that's defending themselves, they should always have a right. If somebody would have came behind this kid, and slit his throat with a metal ruler I would have the exact same feelings, he was trying to hurt other people (or give the impression of it) so whatever he did is all his fault.
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Reply 11 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 02:27:14 AM)
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uhh personally I'm all for pacifism and not killing kids but we don't know what went on in this situation. One news article is not enough for us to have any kind of opinion. Arguing will get us nowhere except an argument.
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Reply 12 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 02:28:30 AM)
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Quote:
I don't know about the civilian world, but I could go to prison for violating the laws of war if I shoot somebody in the leg rather than the head.

Surely you realise that it's pretty much the other way around for a policeman?
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Reply 13 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 02:29:57 AM)
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Quoted from mmac:
I could go to prison for violating the laws of war if I shoot somebody in the leg rather than the head.


I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I'm curious: why do the aforementioned laws of war make incapacitating someone rather than killing them an offense punishable by imprisonment?

I still don't understand why they thought the thing to do was shoot the kid in the head after they learned the gun wasn't real. If they really thought he was capable of using deadly force against them, then they would have been justified, but how could they think he would have been that much of a threat with a toy gun? It doesn't make sense.

Mind you, it was an incredibly stupid thing for the kid to do. It's a shame he'll never get to learn the error of his ways.
mmac
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Reply 14 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 02:34:34 AM)
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It's illegal, because it's intentionally injuring, and causing torture.

It sounds like the dead kid ran out to the police before the other kid could tell the police. Also why would you necessarily believe the kid? It may just be a friend of his trying to keep him out of trouble.
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Reply 15 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 02:37:31 AM)
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Quote:
It's illegal, because it's intentionally injuring, and causing torture.

Well when a policeman shoots someone in the leg, the person in question is usually not left to die on the battlefield.
He is taken to a hospital and treated.

So what does military law have to do with anything here?
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Reply 16 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 02:43:33 AM)
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Quoted from mmac:
WTF? I joined to do a job that works with electronics. If I was in some psychotic person who loves to kill other people I would have gone combat arms, probably ranger or special forces.

It doesn't matter who it is that's defending themselves, they should always have a right. If somebody would have came behind this kid, and slit his throat with a metal ruler I would have the exact same feelings, he was trying to hurt other people (or give the impression of it) so whatever he did is all his fault.


I didnt say that you love it, I said that you put yourself in a position where the need might arise, it has arisen and you felt entirely justified in taking that life, even tho you admit they had a camera in their hand, not a gun. So you're a hardass when people play around with guns and disrespect them and other people who you naturally feel protective towards, ignoring mitigating factors.

You havent exhibited much sympathy for any of the suicidal youngsters whose stories have featured on INTL in the past year. I recall negative comments for the Canadian child who hung herself after being traumatised by domestic violence and bullying. I dont think you're right, they should have wounded the child as I believe they were quite capable of doing so whether the gun was real or not.

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Reply 17 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 05:09:59 AM)
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Quote:
If an adult did the same thing (take hostages, point a weapon towards officers), shooting to kill would be a no-brainer (pun somewhat intended).

Sure. But it's a different situation. It would seem alot more serious if a full grown adult held a child hostage and put children's lives in danger (and it is in the way of someone who has a fully developed brain would do something like that). When a child/young teen does it it seems like he doesn't know what he's doing and he's just really fucked up. If an adult did it even if the person did have mental problems it would be looked upon as some evil adult who's capable of killing children and putting them in danger. Someone obviously who needs to be destroyed or locked up.

Apart from the words of the brother and father how was there any real way to know if it was a pellet gun? The person who shot had to make a choice then and there. Even with his class mates words of it being fake they didn't have any actual proof.

Although I complettly agree with Snowy that it was unnecessary to actually kill him. Wounding him would have been the better option.

But mabye that's what he wanted, after all :
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Reply 18 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 05:13:37 AM)
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Oh most of us would of shot the kid in the head anyways, cause at the end of the day its either live or take a chance of getting killed. Sounds like some parents dropped the ball in raising their little one.
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Reply 19 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 05:14:21 AM)
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Ideally, yes, they should have captured the kid alive. But the way things occurred, I don't think you can really blame the SWAT guy.

I would simply consider it an unfortunate accident.

Of course the kid had issues, and it's a shame he had to die; but he wouldn't have been the first kid to carry a real gun and kill anyone who stood on his path, and I don't see why the cop, who hadn't fucked up as far as we know, should pay for the kid's problems by dying himself.
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Reply 20 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 07:24:49 AM)
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SWAT teams aren't your everyday, run-of-the-mill beat cops, they're trained for tense hostage situations and sting operations. The fact that the SWAT team was called in is sign enough that the kid is going to get killed, if he doesn't surrender peacefully. When SWAT is called in and there is any sign of aggression, they shoot to kill. The kid pointed a gun at them and got shot. End of story.

You could argue all day long about "well, they should've shot to disable him," but the fact of the matter is that most police departments are trained to shoot-to-kill nowadays, especially in situations like these, so you're basically arguing against public policy, not the choice of one random SWAT team member.
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Reply 21 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 07:59:08 AM)
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Quote:
You could argue all day long about "well, they should've shot to disable him," but the fact of the matter is that most police departments are trained to shoot-to-kill nowadays, especially in situations like these, so you're basically arguing against public policy, not the choice of one random SWAT team member.


But that doesn't make it right.....

Seriusly, a headshot seems way to exsesive considering that the boy stood by himself without a hostage, a shot to the shoulder or arm would be enough.....it's not like he had to hit the medula oblangato so he couldn't pull the trigger and kill his hostage....cause he didn't have any.....

and i'm sure the SWAT team stood in cover, and from a distance with armour that could easily protect against a 9mm bullet..

But hey, maybe that's where american soceity is headed.... cause ya'll seem pretty fond of shot first, find out later....
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Reply 22 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 09:43:43 AM)
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how old was this kid? 8th grade? he knew exactly what he was doing, and he got exactly what he was expecting, too. he even said he was going to "kill himself or die somehow."

i don't care how much armor or cover you have, if someone points a gun at you, you're going to shoot to kill. and just because he was only in the 8th grade doesn't mean he didn't know how to use a gun. when i was in the 8th grade, my dad used to take me out to practice with his handgun, and i was a pretty good shot.

it's sad that it had to happen this way, but there's no use in saying they should've just wounded him or placing blame on ANYONE but the kid.
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Reply 23 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 09:51:13 AM)
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Yeah, it would've been grand to listen to the father and brother and then end up with a real gun killing a few SWAT officers, THEN shooting the kid 16 times with an MP5 to make a bigger mess. I don't think it's an officer's obligation to put his fellow officers at risk because a father said that his dumbass kid brought a fake gun to school. The kid didn't want to get shot, he should've dropped it - NOT pointed it at a fucking SWAT officer.

P.S. It's difficult for me to feel sympathy for suicides, too.

P.P.S. If you want people to know you have a fake gun, don't paint over the tell-take orange on the barrel so that it looks like a .22 Beretta.
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Reply 24 of 102 (Originally posted on: 01-15-06 01:09:56 PM)
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Quoted from Spiff:
Mind you, it was an incredibly stupid thing for the kid to do. It's a shame he'll never get to learn the error of his ways.


He did learn his lesson for the nanosecond after he heard the SWAT team member pull the trigger:

THAT WAS STUPID HOLY FUCKING JESUS SH- SPLAT!
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