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peach
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(Originally posted on: 10-07-02 11:47:39 PM)
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I've recently been reconsidering why I left the Catholic Religion, and this person has reminded me of why.
Quote:
Clarissimus: Just thought I'd let you know. . . my intent was not to insult you.
Clarissimus: I don't decide what's true
Clarissimus: I'm just the messenger.
imdbest: Incorrect
Clarissimus: Hows that?
imdbest: Your ideas and beliefs are your own, I won't have you blaming them on something, on your religion or whatever
Clarissimus: I'm not blaming them on religion, I'm just telling you the truth.
imdbest: Your truth, perhaps
Clarissimus: I did not make it myself; the truth is not manmade.
Clarissimus: There is One truth
Clarissimus: I'm not going to argue all night.
imdbest: You've offended me deeply
Clarissimus: Because I'm not so sure anything positive would come from it.
imdbest: It's people like you that drove me away from the Catholic church
imdbest: Does that make you proud?
imdbest: Isn't that the opposite of what you're supposed to be doing, as a "messenger"?
Clarissimus: But I wanted you to know that if you were offended it was not from anything man made up.
Clarissimus: I just tell the Truth.
Clarissimus: The Truth cannot change to make everyone fit in.
Clarissimus: If you don't want it that is your choice.
imdbest: That is not the truth, or even "the TRUTH"
Clarissimus: Yes, it is.
imdbest: No, it isn't.
Clarissimus: . . . . . . . .
imdbest: Man is fallable, correct?
Clarissimus: Yes.
imdbest: Where do you get your information from?
Clarissimus: From God.
imdbest: How does he communicate with you?
Clarissimus: Various ways. . .usually by written word.
imdbest: God wrote it down for you?
Clarissimus: Yes.
Clarissimus: He wrote it down for all of us.
imdbest: Is God a physical entity that can write things down?
Clarissimus: Yes.
imdbest: ...No.
Clarissimus: Otherwise, how could he be real?
Clarissimus: Why would I believe in something imaginary?
imdbest: He can still be real without being a physical creature
Clarissimus: But he manifests himself in the physcial world.
imdbest: He can reveal certain truths to people and have them translate it to written word
Clarissimus: Else how could he communicate with us?
imdbest: above.
Clarissimus: How does he reveal it to them/
Clarissimus: ?
imdbest: Burning bushes
imdbest: Prophets
imdbest: You think God is a person on Earth right now?
Clarissimus: A burning bush is a physical object.
Clarissimus: So is a prophet.
Clarissimus: Or a voice in someone's head.
imdbest: This is how he reveals truth
imdbest: A voice in someones head is not a very good source, in my opinion
Clarissimus: Yes, through physical manifestations.
Clarissimus: Why not?
Clarissimus: If it is the voice of God it is the very best source.
imdbest: Because that can be produced by hysteria
imdbest: how do you know that it is gods voice?
Clarissimus: He reveals Truths man could never guess on his own.
imdbest: But as a voice in someones head?
Clarissimus: Sure, why not?
Clarissimus: It's more efficient than a booming bass from the clouds.
imdbest: how is it more efficient?
Clarissimus: Takes less energy.
imdbest: by whom?
Clarissimus: God.
imdbest: God is omnipotent, I'm sure that his energy is infinite
Clarissimus: But notice how he tends to use natural laws to accomplish his purpose.
imdbest: You heard a voice in your head say that women should not be with women, and you're here to tell me such?
Clarissimus: Heh, no, not that.
imdbest: Then the pope told you it?
imdbest: The fallable pope
Clarissimus: But His written word has told me that.
imdbest: A minister perhaps?
Clarissimus: I don't follow the pope.
imdbest: Quote the bible to me please
Clarissimus: Hold on. ..
imdbest: Quote the many-translated, thousands of years old bible.
Clarissimus: "Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. . . .and as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved."
Clarissimus: Romans 1:26-27
imdbest: I do not believe in a vengeful god
Clarissimus: That doesn't make it so.
imdbest: Do you think that if you did something wrong, that God would make you suffer a penalty that you so richly deserve?
Clarissimus: yes.
Clarissimus: I already have.
Clarissimus: Everyone has.
imdbest: Incorrect.
Clarissimus: Yes, everyone has sinned.
Clarissimus: There are no exceptions.
imdbest: Falling in love with a woman is not a sin.
imdbest: I have sinned, but that is not one of them
Clarissimus: But God says otherwise.
imdbest: I don't believe that, I believe that people who think they know what's right perpetuate a word that isn't truly from God.
Clarissimus: Why do you think that word is not from God?
imdbest: Here are our sources from God: Creation, The Bible. The bible has been translated and perverted into whatever it's holders have chosen, and it's ruined by man.
Clarissimus: Because you don't like what they say?
imdbest: We have left vague ideas
imdbest: And creation
Clarissimus: Why do you think it has been perverted?
imdbest: If I had a book that thousands upon thousands believe in, and I have the control to change something it says to help those people become righteous, I think I might change that book to make it so


There's more. But I won't post it. I wanted to hear your thoughts.
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Reply 1 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 12:12:25 AM)
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You're doing great.

But, it'll be hours before he gives up.

Izzy
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peach
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Reply 2 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 12:13:12 AM)
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We're still going. I have him at a nice place now though;

Quote:
imdbest: Do you see being closed minded as a sin?
Clarissimus: So it doesn't really matter to me if anything comes after that.
Clarissimus: Yes.
imdbest: Do you think that you're closed minded?
Clarissimus: (assuming I am defining it the way you are)
Clarissimus: No.
Clarissimus: (again with said assumption.)
imdbest: Tell me how you define it?
Clarissimus: Being closed minded is refusing to consider the possibility that you might be wrong.
imdbest: So you could be wrong.
Clarissimus: It's possible.
Clarissimus: But not likely.
Clarissimus: Or else I wouldn't believe it.
Clarissimus: Every now and then I run through my beliefs.

buck futter!
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"They stripped, she blew, he fucked, they danced" --Wheezy
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peach
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Reply 3 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 01:01:44 AM)
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oooh, it just took a horrible turn for the worse, my sister walked in and told me that from a "god" point of view it IS wrong. That hurts a thousand times more. And she doesn't know that I am bisexual so that puts me a lot farther behind in telling her. MAGUSMAGUSMAGUSMAGUS

Shit.
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Reply 4 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 04:34:58 AM)
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Now you know the horror of Clarissimus. I'd never even try to debate with him. He's like an evil religous robot.

Quote:
my sister walked in and told me that from a "god" point of view it IS wrong.


But she didn't flat out say "I think homosexuality is wrong.", did she? She just said that from the point of view of "God" it's wrong.
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Reply 5 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 06:08:52 AM)
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Clar is a bad person when it comes to religion. A fundamentalist and conservative one, unlike myself, who won't give a fuck if you're gay, if you watch porn (like me), masturbate (like me), and do other "ANTI-BIBLIC OMFG OMG OMG AND OMFG ARE ANTI BIBLE OMFG OMG SRY " things. I hate people like that.
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Reply 6 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 07:14:55 AM)
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Quote:
Clar is a bad person when it comes to religion. A fundamentalist and conservative one, unlike myself, who won't give a fuck if you're gay, if you watch porn (like me), masturbate (like me), and do other "ANTI-BIBLIC OMFG OMG OMG AND OMFG ARE ANTI BIBLE OMFG OMG SRY " things. I hate people like that.

so you're a christian, but you dont give a fuck about what the bible says?
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Reply 7 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 07:36:54 AM)
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What a fucking fundie. It reminds me of that quote about ignoring all those years of logic and reasoning.
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Reply 8 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 08:43:44 AM)
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here's part of my reasoning for becoming an atheist:

If "god" is an omnipotent, all seeing being that created everything from nothing, and has the power to destroy galaxies with the blink of an eye, AND is also a loving god that wants all of the people created in his image to be happy, why is there still suffering in the world?

answer me that one, chumbucket.
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Reply 9 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 02:33:32 PM)
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(Answering from a religious point of view)

There is suffering because it is a test to see if you are worthy to enter his Kingdom. He made us with free will to choose our own destiny, if you used your free will the rignt way you go to Heaven. Of course if you didn't, off to hell.

(This was coming from a Christian/Catholic point of view)
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Reply 10 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 02:36:47 PM)
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Quoted from anaemic royalty:
Quote:
Clar is a bad person when it comes to religion. A fundamentalist and conservative one, unlike myself, who won't give a fuck if you're gay, if you watch porn (like me), masturbate (like me), and do other "ANTI-BIBLIC OMFG OMG OMG AND OMFG ARE ANTI BIBLE OMFG OMG SRY " things. I hate people like that.

so you're a christian, but you dont give a fuck about what the bible says?

Exactly.
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Reply 11 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 04:04:25 PM)
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i, for one, can't see why anyone really cares whether or not another person believes in god or does not. look at it this way...christians approaching you trying to tell you the "truth" are doing so not to be condescending and rude. i feel that 90% of them really do care about you and want good things for you. for the person who's being preached to to become infuriated and attack the christian in question, i believe, is somewhat inhumane...look at why they're telling you what they're telling you and quit seeing it as them forcing their beliefs down your throat. some people just desperately want to do good for other people.
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Reply 12 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 04:20:54 PM)
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Quoted from Good OL MC:
(Answering from a religious point of view)

There is suffering because it is a test to see if you are worthy to enter his Kingdom. He made us with free will to choose our own destiny, if you used your free will the rignt way you go to Heaven. Of course if you didn't, off to hell.

(This was coming from a Christian/Catholic point of view)


here's my $.02.

if god wants to test me, fuck 'em. if he wants me in heaven, JUST DO IT, YOU GOD DAMNED WORTHLESS OMNIPOTENT BEING! THAT'S WHY YOU'RE OMNIPOTENT! ALL-FUCKING POWERFUL, MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU COMPREHEND IT?

whew.

that felt good.
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peach
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Reply 13 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 04:52:24 PM)
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Quoted from jimmy:
i, for one, can't see why anyone really cares whether or not another person believes in god or does not. look at it this way...christians approaching you trying to tell you the "truth" are doing so not to be condescending and rude. i feel that 90% of them really do care about you and want good things for you. for the person who's being preached to to become infuriated and attack the christian in question, i believe, is somewhat inhumane...look at why they're telling you what they're telling you and quit seeing it as them forcing their beliefs down your throat. some people just desperately want to do good for other people.

I'll respond to this first.
I have absolutely nothing against christians at ALL. But this christian happend to be arrogant and rude, I didn't post the whole chatlog, but his arguements ran in circles, I wasn't trying to get him to stop believing in god AT ALL, I was trying to get him to admit that he *could* be wrong. What I'm concerned with is all the girls that hear people like him and think "my feelings are wrong, I'm a sinner, I can't love another woman because I'm evil" and have a horrible conflicted life because of it.

The funny part (I didn't post it because I was going to bed right away, but I told Izzy about it) was this one part, where I had him admit that all his knowledge is tentative, because we're human and we're fallable, whatever, right? Then HE says this long complicated sentance, something like this "I'll admit that what I say is tentative, but you've said that what you know is tentative, so if we both know that we may be wrong, the fact that it is tentative ceases on my part because bible somethingorother" It was so stupid. It was much more garbled then that, and I told Izzy and he said "whaaaaaaa?" And I explained to him that the translation was "If I may be wrong, and you may be wrong, then I'm obviously absolutely right" It was stupid.

and FA, my sister's pretty religious, actually, so when she says something like that, it usually denotes dissaproval on her part. :-/
Quote:
He's like an evil religous robot.

Agreed. I did assume that he might answer to the voice of reason, I wasn't argueing against god, I was using bible passages to help my case, I even used the ever-popular parable of the Prodigal son.

Quote:
If "god" is an omnipotent, all seeing being that created everything from nothing, and has the power to destroy galaxies with the blink of an eye, AND is also a loving god that wants all of the people created in his image to be happy, why is there still suffering in the world?

If I were religious, I'd argue free will.

Which reminds me of something Clar said. He said that the bible was still the direct word of God, and I said... Well, he didn't write it down himself, did he? And he said "yes." and I was like, "c'mon now, didn't he get other people to write it for him?" "yeah" "and those people are fallable, right?" "No, because God wouldn't let his word be changed" "But he'd let thousands of people die in terrorist disasters, war, etc? I think if he's giving us free will, it's all or nothing." "It's his word" (read: shut up danielle, i have my own beliefs and they won't change until I die)

I hate people who take all this shit from the bible literally, but then if you tell them that the bible is against masturbation or something they say "it can be interpreted that way, but I don't think that's how it was meant"
Fuck it makes me angry.
buck futter!
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Reply 14 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 05:47:29 PM)
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Being a Christian, I must say that I found this debate rather interesting (in fact having a similar debate last night on the way home from a refereeing exam with my mom).

There is a lot in the Bible that is more than likely to have been highly exaggerrated as well as untrue. There are also some scientific explanations for Bible stories (I was interested to find out from some studies we did in Religion class). For example, the story of Moses crossing the Red Sea. More than likely it was a cowardly escape at low tide, but the point is that he did cross the Red Sea and freed the Jews! When high tide returned, what were the Egyptians to do?

On the other hand there are things that basically say "Love everyone." and stuff like that - however it also condemns homosexuality and morals that aren't neccessarily wrong. Basically the Bible says "Love everyone except for [group 1], [group 2] et cetera.

There's also the fact that the Bible does loads of stereotyping - take for example, the parables.

The one about the master who has three slaves, one invests it and makes twice its value, one saves some and buys some stuff, and the third buries it. That says that "You are one of three types of people." which is evidence for my next point as well...

This takes away from our individuality - the Bible states that living life as much like Christ as we can is the most perfect thing we can do. Basically it states, you should all be like one person. (What does that remind you of? Nazis? Yeah.)

Then there are Catholic priests who do not follow the rules of the book that they venerate! In one of the stories of Jesus, Jesus takes some money from the church collection, and throws it away saying "Give unto Caeser what is Caeser's, and give your Tribute unto God!"

However, the Catholic church constantly asks for money - take last year at my confirmation. Our "Welcome" sheet said "Remember that Sunday is the Lord's day, as well the Church's day. (I'm going to interrupt at this point to point out that the Church practically compares itself to be as deserving of the same special day that is God's, anyhow...) It is important to give tributes to God and the Church, and a small donation of $5.00 or more would be greatly appreciated."

This DIRECTLY violates the above lesson that came straight from Jesus' mouth! (to which some of you will say "Straight from the horse's mouth! omg lol" or something, whatever.)

To make a long story short, my life as a Christian follows my conscience, not the Bible. What is right to me - is right to me. I don't need a book to tell me that I'm right or wrong. If, in my opinion, I am doing the right and simply trust that I just have to do my best, and God'll just "put the icing on the cake" for me, and live a life that makes me and the people around me happy.

*shrug*

Yeah, that's about it.
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Reply 15 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 06:30:20 PM)
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You know what I think? I think christianity is a load of shit. Not just a load, but a ****big fucking shit load of shit**** (emphasis added by mirthalac). Underlined with some astrics and exclamation points or something. If there is a hell, I hope whomever wrote the bible should be anally raped there for an eternity, by a 13 inch spiked black dildo with flames. And it should cum acid and molten steel. Fuck yeah!
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This reply was last edited on 10-09-02 08:49:42 AM by mirthalac.
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Reply 16 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 06:54:28 PM)
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This is one of the things that annoys me about Christianity (and religion in general); the fact that every Joe Fundy thinks that he is an expert in Theology and that it is his personal mission to convert everyone that doesn't adhere to his beliefs, oftentimes using misinterpreted, distorted messages from the bible or some other such source as 'factual' evidence. Also, the fact that hes a wise-ass about it doesn't help his case either.

I wouldn't say I don't believe in God, as I cannot disprove or prove that such a figure exists. But I think if there is a God, he really doesn't care about the world anymore.
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Reply 17 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 07:12:17 PM)
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Quote:
However, the Catholic church constantly asks for money - take last year at my confirmation. Our "Welcome" sheet said "Remember that Sunday is the Lord's day, as well the Church's day. (I'm going to interrupt at this point to point out that the Church practically compares itself to be as deserving of the same special day that is God's, anyhow...) It is important to give tributes to God and the Church, and a small donation of $5.00 or more would be greatly appreciated


Well really, think about it you don't have to give any money, your doing it out of your heart(ok wallet) if you dont pay collection that does not mean your going to suffer in hell for eternity for it.

Quote:
"Remember that Sunday is the Lord's day, as well the Church's day.


I believe that statements slighly heretic and I would mention that to someone, if it really bothers you write to your Archbishop/bishop

Quote:
Basically the Bible says "Love everyone except for [group 1], [group 2] et cetera.


Quote Please

Quote:
But I think if there is a God, he really doesn't care about the world anymore.

if he didnt care would we excist?

Quote:
I think christianity is a load of shit.

Why?

Quote:
if god wants to test me, fuck 'em. if he wants me in heaven, JUST DO IT, YOU GOD DAMNED WORTHLESS OMNIPOTENT BEING! THAT'S WHY YOU'RE OMNIPOTENT! ALL-FUCKING POWERFUL, MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU COMPREHEND IT?


hes testing you too see if your worthy for heaven

Quote:
This is one of the things that annoys me about Christianity (and religion in general); the fact that every Joe Fundy thinks that he is an expert in Theology and that it is his personal mission to convert everyone that doesn't adhere to his beliefs,


All of my comments are from inbetween lines if several books I have, and my dad who has a masters in Theology :p
Alyantis
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Reply 18 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 07:32:35 PM)
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I'm a catholic, but in no terms a fundy, hell I've labeled myself and agnostic catholic, I believe in god, I believe in a lot of the stuff the bible says. But there is always chance that everyone is wrong, except for the agnostics, in my opinion. I would never turn atheist because I think that would be as illogical as christianity. I still have faith in god, but I personally believe I would be completley right as an agnostic. I can't go that far to say "god doesn't exsist".
I'm an agnostic catholic... if that's possible...


Some quote should go here, who wants it?
asthetik
I SHOULD READ THE HALL OF REJECTS MORE OFTEN!

making jabs at each other is what the internet is for you fucking idiots. oh, and for stealing things.

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Reply 19 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 08:07:17 PM)
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All of my comments are from inbetween lines if several books I have, and my dad who has a masters in Theology

Did the thought ever cross your mind that not every single fucking post is directed towards you?

READ -> COMPREHEND -> POST
poop
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i'd expect more sorcery in a place called mana pools

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Reply 20 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-08-02 09:26:46 PM)
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My thoughts:

I believe in God. And I don't really like the idea of going to Hell. I'm not a really bad guy, I'm just not a very good guy. While some of you might be going straight to Hell and you know it, I honestly don't know where I'd end up if I died right now.
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stan "the single pringle" templeton

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Reply 21 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-09-02 08:59:12 AM)
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Quoted from Sonofvendettazchild:

hes testing you too see if your worthy for heaven



if he made me in his own god damned image, he best have made me worthy for heaven, that cocksmoker.

also, on the case of free will, IF GOD IS OMNIPOTENT, HE WOULD HAVE SEEN THE HAVOC THAT FREE WILL WOULD CAUSE. IF HE WAS A JUST AND LOVING GOD, HE WOULD THEREFORE HAVE NOT CREATED FREE WILL. THEREFORE ALL CHRISTIAN CLAIMS THAT "GOD" IS JUST AND LOVING ARE BULLSHIT. THEREFORE, NOT SUBJECT TO WORSHIP. I CAN BE A CRUEL AND EVIL MASTER TOO. WHY DON'T YOU WORSHIP ME?
Bobby Crosby
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Reply 22 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-09-02 06:02:24 PM)
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I say that if there was a god, why wouldn't he just send us directly to heaven or hell instead of "testing" us here? He would know where we're going anyway, so what would the point of this life be?
mirthalac
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stan "the single pringle" templeton

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Reply 23 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-09-02 06:09:16 PM)
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Quoted from Marcher:
I say that if there was a god, why wouldn't he just send us directly to heaven or hell instead of "testing" us here? He would know where we're going anyway, so what would the point of this life be?


exactly. you have won my favor this day!

(here, have some karma)
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Reply 24 of 62 (Originally posted on: 10-09-02 06:21:54 PM)
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Wow, mirth has one of the smartest arguments against relgion I've ever seen. Too bad I can't give you more karma.
the best thing about high school girls... every year im a little older, but every year they stay the same age. - NNY
Get the sand out of your vagina man. - Wild Bill
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