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(Originally posted on: 03-19-05 06:08:14 PM)
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I'm sure you all have heard about this in the news and if you haven't, www.cnn.com

What are your thoughts on this matter? What would you want done if you were in her situation?

What would you do if you were her husband? Mother? Sibling? The judge?

Do you think that the House should be involved?
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Reply 1 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-19-05 08:01:07 PM)
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The thing about this case that gets me is this: It seems to me that the people who are directly opposing each other in this matter (that is, Terri's husband and her parents) are trying to do what they believe Terri would have wanted done. Her husband believes that she would want to be allowed to die, were she to have known beforehand that she would be in such a condition, whereas her parents believe she would want to live. It's therefore mostly a matter of Terri's intent. That being presently inconclusive, however, some people have jumped to conclusions and are using this as an occasion not to respect and indeed try to puzzle out what Terri wanted, but to give themselves an excuse to wave the "Everybody is obligated to live, no matter what the situation is" flag. The issue to be decided here is not whether euthanasia is universally right or wrong - and if I may so myself, it's neither, since every case where it might be used has its own specifics - the issue is whether it would be Terri's wish to live or die, and, her own input failing, who should be her voice in the matter. This case should not be about saving Terri Shiavo's life, but whether or not Terri would want to be saved. I'm annoyed at the house's involvement, as they clearly do not understand this distinction, and treat it merely as a "pro-life" case.

If I were in her case, I honestly don't really think I'd care what was done with me. I mean, sure, it's my life, but I'm already in a state where I have no control over it. If I live, I will live only in my own little world. If I die, I'm dead. Neither option is one I can control, so why bother having an opinion about it? I would disapprove, however, of being kept alive due to any sort of categorical imperative stance on euthanasia.
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Reply 2 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-19-05 10:09:05 PM)
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I came on hoping to make a thread about this, and I'm glad someone did.

I would certainly not want to be a vegetable, but starvation does seem like a harsh method of going. I hope someone would dig out Dr. Kevorkian's phone number if I were ever put in such a situation.

From what I have seen, the family seems a bit out of touch with reality; Terri's parents were on Fox News last night, and they claimed that "there is absolutely nothing wrong with her, and there is no reason to heartlessly execute her".
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Reply 3 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-20-05 09:55:23 AM)
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I'm not fully sure what my opinion is on this matter. Right now, I agree with her parents. I personally would not consider using a feeding tube as extraordinary means for keeping her alive. And, since she had nothing formally in writing about what should happen to her in a vegetative state, I don't think her husband has the right to pull her feeding tube. Anyone can watch TV or do something around the house and say, "I wouldn't want that to happen to me." It doesn't make it an irrevocable law.

Her life is becoming way too politicized; if all it takes for her to be alive is a feeding tube, and people are willing to keep her alive, and she's *not* suffering....why kill her? Her husband's word has nothing to do with it; a person's life should be terminated only when there is an extreme amount of suffering and there is more substantial evidence saying the person requested it.
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Reply 4 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-20-05 04:07:56 PM)
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I guess ultimately it all comes down to what T. Shiavo would have wanted, but since that is impossible to know for certain I think she should be kept alive. Of course, personally I would prefer to be killed on the spot rather than being in her situation, but that's a very personal issue.

As Dante said, it strikes me as really odd than they really want to kill her by starvation. If they indeed decide to kill her, I think they should choose other methods. It seems like if they didn't want this to be associated with the word 'euthanasia'.
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Reply 5 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-20-05 08:51:57 PM)
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It seems from my perspective, which is limited as I haven't heard too much about this case, is that it is being used as a scapegoat for a number of groups to assert their power of influence. Her parents want her to live, her husband recommends she dies, then add in the government, news and religious groups who latch onto the case because God knows they don't have better things to do.

I personally wouldn't want to end up in Terri's situation. If you had a very minimal chance of returning to your previous state, that in itself is a form of cruelty, perhaps. If the argument continues, the issue whether she lives or dies will become irrelavant.
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Reply 6 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-20-05 09:56:24 PM)
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It is in her own will that she be removed from the artificial sustenance.

I don't see what the big problem is, yes mom and dad want their child to live, of course, but she is a grown woman; she explicitly said she would not want to be kept alive by artificial means for a prolonged period of time.
This is why I agree with the law for once, her will should be respected.

This is based on the two newspaper articles I read here in the Tampa Trib though, I haven't been all over this.
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Reply 7 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-20-05 10:15:38 PM)
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This is one of those subjects that hit the heart of the question, What is being alive?

Its just too personal of a question to ever really be put into law. I have thought about this on and off for many years and I still cant decide what is "right" in these circumstances. Whether it be abortion or living like vegetable in a wheelchair. Both sides are right and wrong. So it just comes down to what you believe in.

I believe that if a person decides to die instead of being comatose, then so be it. If a person decides to live let them see what they are asking for first.

Someone who was like a mother to me died of cancer many years back. The week before she died she slipped into a coma, and being in that comatose state was not pretty to see. Its not like hollywood. Not something I would wish apon anyone. But it is their "choice"
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Reply 8 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-20-05 10:39:24 PM)
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Quoted from Menion:
It is in her own will that she be removed from the artificial sustenance.

I don't see what the big problem is, yes mom and dad want their child to live, of course, but she is a grown woman; she explicitly said she would not want to be kept alive by artificial means for a prolonged period of time.
This is why I agree with the law for once, her will should be respected.

This is based on the two newspaper articles I read here in the Tampa Trib though, I haven't been all over this.


If I recall the story correctly, her "will" is simply her watching a television show with her husband and her saying she wouldn't want to be a vegetable if something happened to her.

I don't think that has any force of law, and I don't think she should be terminated. Screw ethical issues and political motivations; it's a feeding tube. It's not a respirator. It's not an iron lung. It's merely a way to give her body sustenance until nature runs its course. There was no explicit mandate that she should die.
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Reply 9 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 06:06:48 AM)
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I sure feel better about this country knowing that the government is so involved with keeping a fucking vegetable alive! Hey! Maybe if a republican governers 9 year old daughter was abducted, raped and murdered we wouldn't have to worry about baby rapers being released with a nice 5 year slap on the wrist and *gasp* DOING IT AGAIN!

In short, I don't give a fuck if the cunt lives or dies and neither should George Bush, for the love of fuck this story is getting too much goddamn attention!
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Reply 10 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 06:44:57 AM)
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/21/schiavo/index.html
Surprise, surprise -- Bush signed the bill.


I have to give major props to the husband. The media is making him out to be a murderer, but in my book, he's done everything right. Although he said that Terri expressed not wanting to live in a vegetative state (in a passing comment or a hashed out discussion), he let the courts decide what Terri's wishes were instead of trying to take matters into his own hands. He also waited fifteen years to see if her condition improved -- it did not. And it's not like science is going to help Terri anytime soon -- at least in the current political climate where the religious right has taken over (resulting in a small allocation of stem cells, most of which are unusable).

As far as I'm concerned, she's already dead. If she were in a comatose state or the severity of her brain damage wasn't so intense, I'd have a different opinion, but all that's left is brain fluid and a stem. Her family wants everyone to belief that she's responsive, but those movements that you see on video clips are completely random. We know this because the courts (who decided to remove her feeding tube) have watched hours of unedited footage and have reported on this. Her heart is beating and she is breathing without a respirator -- but that's it. She's an empty shell of a person.

What really pisses me off is that her parents said that even if she did explicitly state that she didn't want to live like that, they would keep her alive (only to satisfy their own selfishness).

What's ironic -- bulimia is purportedly what put her in this condition.
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Reply 11 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 08:40:52 AM)
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Canadas parlament and supreme court had to deal with this issue twice, with Sue Rodriguez and Robert Latamer. Both cases where Sue was killed by her husband, and Robert a father who killed his daughter. Both with extreme muscle disorders and literally on their way to dying a slow and painful death.

Ask yourself this, would you be comittied to spend how many years of your life caring for a person who is a vegitable, a person who has enough brain function just to breath. Cannot communicate, move nor do anything, even smile and say hello. I would say it is pretty friggin rough. Can you imagine the husband, the woman he loved and married is in that hospital is all but really dead to him yet there she is.

She should of been let to die ages ago, mainly you are just prolonging what is going to happen. If I was a parent I would want to hang on to my child if I could but when is it time to face cold hard facts and let things go.

This woman isnt comming back anytime soon! If I ended up like that just pull the plug I rather be buried and have my family move on rather than having an empty shell of myself sitting there all wired up in the hospital.

At least they could do some good and donate her organs to some poor adult or child who needs them and give them a second chance.
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Reply 12 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 11:19:38 AM)
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Wait, I didn't know she had said she wouldn't like to be kept alive as a vegetable. Even if she only said that in a casual conversation while watching TV, that should be enough. When someone says something like that, it's not usually something that just pops up in her mind, quite often there has been some kind of inner reflection about it. Anyway, I'd say the husband would know best than her parents.
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Reply 13 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 11:41:53 AM)
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Last night, someone proposed the idea to me that maybe there was a possibility that Terri could still have conscious thought. How then, he said, could we kill another thinking human being.

I responded to my friend, saying that even if her brain damage was limited to her motor abilities and her mind still functioned to a full degree, that would be even worse in my opinion. To be trapped alive is such a prison is possibly the worst hell I can imagine.
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Reply 14 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 12:46:33 PM)
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Quote:
Canadas parlament and supreme court had to deal with this issue twice, with Sue Rodriguez and Robert Latamer. Both cases where Sue was killed by her husband, and Robert a father who killed his daughter. Both with extreme muscle disorders and literally on their way to dying a slow and painful death.


Sue Rodriguez is not related to this article or Robert Latamer. In the early stages of her disease she asked the courts if she could commit suicide through euthanasia given by a doctor. As her disease progressed, her body would deteriorate, while her mind would stay relatively intact.

When the courts denied her 'right to die,' she objected and was euthanized by a doctor in privacy. Her husband did not decide whether or not she would die or not.

Quote:
Last night, someone proposed the idea to me that maybe there was a possibility that Terri could still have conscious thought. How then, he said, could we kill another thinking human being.


The killing of a thinking human being is done frequently. There are hundreds of millions of people to attest to that. The question isn't whether she is thinking, but whether she has the ability to return to the standard of living which she had prior to her condition. If she's actively thinking, could you imagine what she is thinking?

It reminds me of a woman I heard about years ago. I do not recall her name, but she was in a car accident after going to a club with friends. Today, she can't talk, she can't walk, she can't use her senses (except her eyes and ears - which are fixed), she can't move her muscles, yet she can remember and can think. The likelihood she would be removed from this state is unlikely, considering other people want her to stay alive.
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Reply 15 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 02:32:13 PM)
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Reminds me of the book "Johnny Got His Gun."

I would personally not want to live in a state such as that... I think it *is* kind of selfish of the parents, who have no legal responsibility for the woman anymore, to want to hold on.
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Reply 16 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 03:35:58 PM)
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Quoted from Zippo:

I have to give major props to the husband. The media is making him out to be a murderer, but in my book, he's done everything right. Although he said that Terri expressed not wanting to live in a vegetative state (in a passing comment or a hashed out discussion), he let the courts decide what Terri's wishes were instead of trying to take matters into his own hands. He also waited fifteen years to see if her condition improved -- it did not. And it's not like science is going to help Terri anytime soon -- at least in the current political climate where the religious right has taken over (resulting in a small allocation of stem cells, most of which are unusable).


I see your point here, and I agree with that; but why did the husband ignore the fact his wife wanted to die if she reached such a state and keep her alive for fifteen years? Why didn't he make this decision fifteen years ago when those were his wishes? Now it seems like he's backing out, and fifteen years is a long time for her family to deepen their attachment to Terri even though she is unresponsive.
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Reply 17 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 03:40:06 PM)
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Wow, all this over a body.
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Reply 18 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 06:07:46 PM)
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Quoted from Science Brad:
Wow, all this over a body.


Right. This frustrates me more and more. It's an emotional story and that's why IMPORTANT things are being burried underneath it. Terri Schiavo is being treated like a national security issue purely because it's emotionally charged. There's a small issue underneath it about living wills and when to decide that ending life is an act of mercy but in the grand scheme of things this topic will affect the lives of virtually nobody. I used the example of Child Molestation early mainly because that's a major story and issue down here that has gone pretty much ignored because of this story. When a missing child turns up raped and murdered by a resident convicted child molester who was locked up for five years and released with a "ok promise not to rape kids anymore" and a pat on the back we need to seriously start worrying about this (even before hand, but still) but no...it's more important that we support Terri Schiavo and her family and have bush fly down to look like a teddy bear.

And I'm starting to get pissed at everyone in this thread that treats it like a monday afternoon soap opera on the lifetime network.
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Reply 19 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 07:23:01 PM)
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Quoted from Sunny:
Quote:
Last night, someone proposed the idea to me that maybe there was a possibility that Terri could still have conscious thought. How then, he said, could we kill another thinking human being.


The killing of a thinking human being is done frequently. There are hundreds of millions of people to attest to that.
But not with the approval of the state, unless they have been convicted of a crime.

I agree with you however that the issue is not as much her cognitive abilities, but her chances of recovery.

As to what she may be thinking; I can only speak for myself, but I would wish to die peacefully around friends and loved ones, as soon as possible. I also would regret having my tragedy hyjacked by desperate news networks clawing for any story that might pull on the nation's heartstrings.
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Reply 20 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 07:45:44 PM)
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Quote:
Sue Rodriguez is not related to this article or Robert Latamer. In the early stages of her disease she asked the courts if she could commit suicide through euthanasia given by a doctor. As her disease progressed, her body would deteriorate, while her mind would stay relatively intact.




I think they are very much related. A husband wants to end his wifes life and it is very obvious she isnt going to live and the government is stepping in and putting a stop to it.
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Reply 21 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 07:57:47 PM)
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This whole story is just sad. The woman has a poor quality of life. I know people may question that statement, but the inability to complete motor tasks and respond to those around you who love you most (especially if she is cognitively aware) is living in a personal hell.
It's not my place to say that she should or should not be given the chance to 'live' the rest of her life, but really, what kind of 'life' does she have?
The worst part of all is that the people who love her most are fighting to remove the feeding tube or keep her alive. Hope is a wonderful thing...it keeps people looking toward the future and i feel for Terri's parents because no one wants to give up the hope that their child will one day lead a productive life. But I have to side with Terri's husband who knows her in a more intimate manner and loves her enough to let her go.
Letting go is hard and the enevitable end of life is coming for all of us. Perhaps the end of 'life' for Terri has already happened and it's just time to let her body go.
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Reply 22 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 08:05:36 PM)
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Quoted from Skye:
but why did the husband ignore the fact his wife wanted to die if she reached such a state and keep her alive for fifteen years? Why didn't he make this decision fifteen years ago when those were his wishes? Now it seems like he's backing out, and fifteen years is a long time for her family to deepen their attachment to Terri even though she is unresponsive.

From what I read, it seems like he waited a little while to see if she could improve with therapy until he gave up ~ 1991. And that's when the battle versus the parents began. If it were completely up to him, she would have died in 1991. Her feeding tube has been removed and re-inserted three times since then.
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Reply 23 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 08:30:34 PM)
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Two things I want to touch on here, and that would be whether Shiavo has the right to live, and this whole court issue.

I've done a little research before posting about this, and I think she should live. She does not require a breathing apparatus (which even Christopher Reeves required), she only needs food and water (what a baby needs), she can laugh, she can cry, she can smile, and she is starting to utter complete sentences after several years of being essentially in a brain-dead state. After fifteen years, just a year short of how long I've been around, she is starting to show signs of a minor recovery. Were she to continue on her course of no recovery in sight, taking up tax dollars in the process, I would have been all for her being given the right to die in dignity. But she seems, judging by the signs, to be recovering, to be leaving her current state of health.

Aside from the fact that her husband, as well-intentioned he may be, has refused her most of the therapy she's been offered, the case should not have been brought before a state judge, as it is a family issue, first and foremost, and the parents and husband should have been able to adequately compromise like thinking adults instead of bringing the gov't into it, and thus starting this politically and religiously charged storm. What also irks me is that the traditionally state's rights conservative crowd are protesting the judge's decision. When the Shiavos said they would bring the issue before the judge, they said they would be just fine with whatever decision the judge made, as they were staunch believers in state's rights. They were confident he would make the decision they wanted to hear. But it did not turn out that way, and because of that, they are taking the issue to the highest office in the land, and in what appears to be almost Stalinist in effect, had the president himself sign a bill (A BILL!) reinserting Terri's feeding tube, overturning the STATE judge's decision, much to the joy of the STATE's rights conservative extremists. The bill was signed literally overnight, with little opposition from the basically republican crowd.

In my opinion, Terri should be allowed to live, because she is progressing from a vegetable to a higher state (hopefully; she certainly shows signs of recovery), but it is the family's decision, and they should have made it. They didn't, so they brought it before a judge, who should have been a very last resort, and he made his decision, and it should have ended there. Stop bringing the government into personal matters, as it only gives the gov't more control. That is what state's rights are all about, and, boy, are they a fundamental freedom of ours, and an underrated one at that. When things like that get ignored for a supposedly more noble cause, only bad will result in the long run. The republican party, while right for the wrong reasons in this matter, needs to stop being hypocritical in a case like this, which should have remained between the family. If they decide she lives, she lives, and if not, then not. It need never be clearer, to anyone. Fin.
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Reply 24 of 64 (Originally posted on: 03-21-05 08:30:39 PM)
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I think they are very much related. A husband wants to end his wifes life and it is very obvious she isnt going to live and the government is stepping in and putting a stop to it.


Yet, the circumstances are entirely different. In this case, it's other people who are deciding what Terri wanted. What we gain from Terri's perspective is hearsay given by other people. In the Sue Rodriguez case, she was the one who made the decision to end her life, not her husband.

If Terri had made a decision prior to being hit by the inhibiting stages of the disease, there would be no argument occuring now. However, the details of the alleged 'decisions' she made, or what she 'wanted' are unclear.
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