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drahnier
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(Originally posted on: 03-13-05 07:51:44 PM)
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I have sort of a life-philosophy, and i'd like to know what you think about it.
I've actually had this attitude for a long time, in fact i used to post about it at a little place called HG several years ago, resulting in a lot of controversy.

Basically, it's this:
I don't believe in a god or an afterlife, so i figure that the only logical thing to do is try to enjoy my life as much as possible while i'm still alive.
This makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

This leads me to the next conclusion.
I should do anything i possibly can to make life as easy as possible for myself, and this includes hurting other people.
If i, hypothetically, had the opportunity to make a million dollars by committing a murder that i could be sure to get away with, then there's no reason not to do it.
In fact, it would be irrational to not take that opportunity.

The same thing applies to any other horrific act you can think of, like raping a child or something.

The fact is that i've never really cared about what happens to other people, and doing those things wouldn't make me feel bad.
And because i don't have these irrational feelings of guilt, there is absolutely no logical reason for me to NOT hurt another person in order to gain advantages for myself.

I don't care if my actions are considered immoral, there's no reason for me to follow some obscure moral code.
I prefer to follow logic.
I think the only logical thing for me to do is to do anything i can to make life easier for myself, and whether i hurt other people or not in the process is really irrelevant, because that's not MY problem.

I mean, since i don't believe in a god or a life after death, why the hell would i NOT try to enjoy my life as much as possible while i still have it?
It really seems like the only rational thing to do.

Does this make sense to you?
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Reply 1 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-13-05 08:28:36 PM)
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Well it is alright to enjoy life, but making a prick of yourself just to gain a million dollars isnt a nice way to be. What kind of murder are we talking about?
Acheron
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Reply 2 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-13-05 08:32:59 PM)
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No, actually, it doesn't.

It's allright to enjoy your life, however, the reason for moral codes is this:

There's always a bigger fish.

There's always going to be someone bigger than you, and better than you. According to your logic, if they didn't like you, they should kill you, because doing so would bring them pleasure.

There's something called the Social Contract. It's what society, and morals, are based on. For your own self preservation, you agree not to murder, steal, or do other horrific acts, not because it benifits you directly to abstain from such acts, but because it benefits you directly when others don't murder you for your million dollars.

This is why atheists still hold to Morality. It doesn't come from god, it comes from the recognition of the fact that if your society allows people to go around killing each other, most people would end up dead.

To paraphrase Ghandi, if we lived by the standard of "An Eye for an Eye," then the whole world would soon be blind.

Simply put, if you followed such a moral standard, you'd end up dead quicker, and with decidedly less life to enjoy.

But, if all of us agree not to kill each other or do horrific things to each other, and if we punish those who DO do horrific things to each other, then we'll ensure that most of us have happy long lives, rather than violent, dark, scheming, short ones.
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drahnier
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Reply 3 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-13-05 08:33:10 PM)
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Well it is alright to enjoy life, but making a prick of yourself just to gain a million dollars isnt a nice way to be.

It seems like the logical way to be.

Quote:
There's something called the Social Contract. It's what society, and morals, are based on. For your own self preservation, you agree not to murder, steal, or do other horrific acts, not because it benifits you directly to abstain from such acts, but because it benefits you directly when others don't murder you for your million dollars.

That is complete bullshit.

The fact that i am willing to commit "immoral" acts does not increase the risk of other people committing "immoral" acts towards me.

If i break into someones house and steal their TV, that does not increase the risk that someone else will break into MY house and steal MY things.

So actually, abstaining from doing these acts doesn't benefit me at all.
I obviously wouldn't commit an act like this in a situation where the victim would know who i was and have the ability to take direct revenge on me, by the way.
That would NOT be logical.

Also, keep in mind that i was talking about a situation where there is virtually no risk of being arrested and sent to prison.
I'm talking about why it is logical for me to hurt other people when i obviously will gain something from it without getting caught and punished.

Quote:
Simply put, if you followed such a moral standard, you'd end up dead quicker, and with decidedly less life to enjoy.


No, i wouldn't.

It might affect the entire world in the (very) long run, but it wouldn't have any effect on me.
DRAHNIER
This reply was last edited on 03-13-05 08:54:42 PM by drahnier.
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Reply 4 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-13-05 08:40:08 PM)
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just because you do not believe in a higer power doesnt mean you have to be an ass
Acheron
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Reply 5 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-13-05 08:47:44 PM)
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Quoted from Mr Excitable:
just because you do not believe in a higer power doesnt mean you have to be an ass


Yeah... if everyone acted like that? We'd all be dead.
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drahnier
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Reply 6 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-13-05 08:59:22 PM)
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just because you do not believe in a higer power doesnt mean you have to be an ass

If i can profit from being an ass, why should i NOT be an ass?

Quote:
Yeah... if everyone acted like that? We'd all be dead.

What the hell has that got to do with anything?

I'm not talking about "everyone", i'm talking about me and what will benefit me personally.

Let's say that i rape an 8 year old kid and get a million dollars for doing it (hypothetical example), in a situation where i can't be caught and sent to jail.
How exactly will that effect me negatively?

Quote:
This is why atheists still hold to Morality. It doesn't come from god, it comes from the recognition of the fact that if your society allows people to go around killing each other, most people would end up dead.

I'm not saying that i want society to allow people to kill eachother.
If it did, my life would be a lot harder.

I'm saying that if i personally have a good opportunity to make my own life easier by killing someone, the only logical thing would be to do it.
DRAHNIER
This reply was last edited on 03-13-05 09:12:31 PM by drahnier.
Acheron
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Reply 7 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-13-05 09:11:44 PM)
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Your hypothetical is irrelevant. I'm talking about the way this would work in reality. I've always believed that if you don't want to obey the social contract, you don't have to. It no longer applies to you at all. That includes its protections.

In the hypothetical situation where you raped tortured and murdered a little girl, sure, go ahead, do it. But the father has a right to hunt you down and do whatever the hell he wants to you.
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Reply 8 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-13-05 09:23:08 PM)
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Your hypothetical is irrelevant. I'm talking about the way this would work in reality.

There are plenty of situations in life where you get the opportunity to gain advantages by hurting other people, without risking to get caught.

Quote:
I've always believed that if you don't want to obey the social contract, you don't have to. It no longer applies to you at all. That includes its protections.

Actually it DOES still apply to me.

Because if i beat up an old lady on the street and steal her money and don't get caught, the police will still try to protect me from other people who want to steal MY money.
So the risk of someone else stealing my money won't be any bigger than it was before.

Isn't it beautiful?

Quote:
In the hypothetical situation where you raped tortured and murdered a little girl, sure, go ahead, do it. But the father has a right to hunt you down and do whatever the hell he wants to you.

And if there was a considerable risk of that happening, i wouldn't do it.
Obviously.

I was talking about situations where i can commit so-called "immoral" acts without being caught and punished for them, and why i think the only logical thing to do in these situations would be to commit these acts.
I said this in the topic post.
DRAHNIER
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Reply 9 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-13-05 09:27:52 PM)
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Because eventually you'll do something where you think you won't get caught. And then, you will get caught. That, or you'll burn someone so badly they'll feel they have nothing left to lose. Lets say you take advantage of someone, and the person feels like they've no reason to live. Ever hear of a Murder-Suicide? They'll take you down with them. That, or someone just as smart and manipulative as you, will find some way to circumvent the laws to destroy you, because they don't like your actions. You'll make enemies living that way, and eventually, one of them will take you out.
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Reply 10 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-13-05 09:31:12 PM)
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Because eventually you'll do something where you think you won't get caught. And then, you will get caught.

No.

But anyway, i guess this means that you basically agree with me, right?

If i have the opportunity to gain something by hurting someone else and there is no way anyone will catch me doing it and punish me, then there is no reason for me to avoid hurting that person?

Quote:
You'll make enemies living that way, and eventually, one of them will take you out.

I'm talking about specific situations here, not about just going around indiscriminately killing people and stealing things left and right.
DRAHNIER
This reply was last edited on 03-13-05 09:55:07 PM by drahnier.
Acheron
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Reply 11 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 12:05:15 AM)
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I'm saying it's stupid, because you're not as smart as you think you are. There's never going to be a situation where you probably won't get caught.

Lets say you do pull something off at someone else's expense. Lets say it's something big. You'll have the "What if they find out?" hanging over you the rest of your life.

What goes around, DOES come around. You might pull a Nietsche and find that you've become an angry old syphallitic madman someday.
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Reply 12 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 02:39:09 AM)
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So you say you won't feel guilty about murdering some business man for his wallet, or taking some old ladies life savings (because that'll probably be what it comes down to, I don't see you having the balls for anything bigger). Do it.

Then come back and tell me you're still not feeling guilty. It's very well possible you won't, I think you will, but lets just say you won't. Cool, you've got a lot of money, so fly to amsterdam and we'll get drunk.

You're a bit of a paranoid man, right? You are going to be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life, no matter what immoral act you commit, you're going to become a nervous wreck. know why? because you're not out doing it, but actually contemplating the pro's and con's of doing it.

If you really didnt care, and you really don't feel guilt, you wouldn't even have thought up a life philosophy about it, it would just have been a part of you. And you would already have been either rich, in jail or dead.

If you're sole motivation is greed, try making / stealing money in another way. Murder and hurting people (the way you're talking about it) is much less about the money then it is about the rush, anger, power and lust.

Your body doesnt give two cents for your logic. You'll feel things like most other men, you might not feel guilt, but you'll never know a moments peace either.

If you pull it off, and it makes you happy, go for it, you've got my support. Hurt anyone I know though, and I'll rip out your heart and feed it to my cat.
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drahnier
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Reply 13 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 07:47:18 AM)
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I probably won't have the opportunity to kill someone for money.
Chances are no one will ever offer me a million dollars for raping a little girl, and it's even more unlikely that i'd get a good chance to do it without being caught.

Those were just exaggerated examples to illustrate my point.

But there certainly are opportunities that all of us get during our lives to get advantages, small or big ones, by doing something immoral with a practically non-existant risk of being caught.
It can be small opportunities that come up in everyday life, like just taking someones wallet, or bigger things.

I'm not actually PLANNING to kill someone, because even though it's theoretically possible, i'll probably never get a good chance to.
And even if i did get the chance, i can't be sure if i could actually do it until i've been in that situation.

Quote:
Then come back and tell me you're still not feeling guilty. It's very well possible you won't, I think you will, but lets just say you won't. Cool, you've got a lot of money

Yeah, that was the point.

Quote:
You're a bit of a paranoid man, right? You are going to be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life, no matter what immoral act you commit, you're going to become a nervous wreck.

Well, there would be no reason to worry about it, and certainly not for the rest of my life.

Yes i am a bit paranoid, in fact, i'll probably be a nervous wreck whether i kill someone or not.
I just don't think getting caught several years afterwards would be something i'd worry much about, i'd probably be too busy thinking i had cancer or something.

Quote:
If you really didnt care, and you really don't feel guilt, you wouldn't even have thought up a life philosophy about it

Why not?
DRAHNIER
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Reply 14 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 07:55:03 AM)
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From the looks of it you're a satanist.

What do I think?
I think you'll be happy your entire life, or strive for said happiness, right up until you're about to die.

In that last moment you'll realize how much of a fucking waste it all was to live for yourself. And you'll die alone.

I also think you're full of shit.

Here let me explicate:
You're saying killing someone to better yourself is not YOUR problem. Well, if you follow that logic you hold so dear to a conclusive end you'll see that all killing someone will do is cause you problems.

The fact that your mindset seems to be focused on the now just lets me know you really dont care about the future. I say if you're humane enough to post on a forum and you haven't killed anyone then yes, you're all talk and thus full of shit.

Don't talk tough unless you walk tough. And please don't try and pull of this 'I'll kill you if it makes me feel better' attitude. Its stupid.

Edit: I'm not certain if what I just said was flamming or not...and this is GD. Sorry?
drahnier
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Reply 15 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 08:04:13 AM)
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Quote:
You're saying killing someone to better yourself is not YOUR problem. Well, if you follow that logic you hold so dear to a conclusive end you'll see that all killing someone will do is cause you problems.

Not necessarily.

Notice that i was just using murder as an example of an immoral act, since it's considered the biggest immoral act and using it would effectively illustrate my point.
In the situation i was talking about, where i would commit murder, there wouldn't be any considerable risk of getting caught for it.

And apart from being arrested and sent to prison, i'm not sure what problems it could cause for me.
The same thing goes for any other immoral act i can commit, big or small.

Quote:
In that last moment you'll realize how much of a fucking waste it all was to live for yourself. And you'll die alone

What could possibly be LESS wasteful than living your life for yourself and trying to enjoy it as much as possible?
DRAHNIER
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Reply 16 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 08:09:10 AM)
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Quoted from Drahnier:
I probably won't have the opportunity to kill someone for money.
Chances are no one will ever offer me a million dollars for raping a little girl, and it's even more unlikely that i'd get a good chance to do it without being caught.

Those were just exaggerated examples to illustrate my point.

But there certainly are opportunities that all of us get during our lives to get advantages, small or big ones, by doing something immoral with a practically non-existant risk of being caught.
It can be small opportunities that come up in everyday life, like just taking someones wallet, or bigger things.

Thats like saying you could fly a spaceshuttle because you can ride a bike.

There is a line where it starts to haunt you afterwards. Stealing someone's wallet certainly isn't going to cross that line. Murdering someone to steal his wallet almost certainly is.
Quote:
Quote:
Then come back and tell me you're still not feeling guilty. It's very well possible you won't, I think you will, but lets just say you won't. Cool, you've got a lot of money

Yeah, that was the point.
My point here was to tell you cool, goal accomplished, excellent.

Quote:
Quote:
If you really didnt care, and you really don't feel guilt, you wouldn't even have thought up a life philosophy about it

Why not?
Because it would be a part of your emotional being, just like the need to breath isn't really something worth contemplating. But I was focussing more on the killing someone part. that can be a pretty emotion driven thing, in which case, you wouldn't contemplate it much.

But I guess if you plan it out enough, you'd eventually have to think about how it'd make you feel.



Quote:
Edit: I'm not certain if what I just said was flamming or not...and this is GD. Sorry?
I won't consider this flaming, drah won't mind anyway.

Quote:
I think you'll be happy your entire life, or strive for said happiness, right up until you're about to die.

In that last moment you'll realize how much of a fucking waste it all was to live for yourself. And you'll die alone.
What the hell? not everyone is as dependant as you, some people might not care if they die alone.

If you live your life, conscious of what you want, who you are and how you feel, and be true to that, there is no possible way to feel like you describe at the moment you die.
Quote:
You're saying killing someone to better yourself is not YOUR problem. Well, if you follow that logic you hold so dear to a conclusive end you'll see that all killing someone will do is cause you problems.
...how?
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This reply was last edited on 03-14-05 08:16:14 AM by Mingan.
drahnier
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Reply 17 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 08:12:31 AM)
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Quote:
There is a line where it starts to haunt you afterwards

No, i really don't think there is.
DRAHNIER
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Reply 18 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 08:16:00 AM)
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Quoted from Drahnier:


Basically, it's this:
I don't believe in a god or an afterlife, so i figure that the only logical thing to do is try to enjoy my life as much as possible while i'm still alive.
This makes perfect sense, doesn't it?



To a certain extent. If one is an atheist that doesnt naturally exclude the basic impulse to do good for others, to nurture and care for you fellow human beings..so to me the thing you say next is rather strange.

Quoted from Drahnier:


This leads me to the next conclusion.
I should do anything i possibly can to make life as easy as possible for myself, and this includes hurting other people.
If i, hypothetically, had the opportunity to make a million dollars by committing a murder that i could be sure to get away with, then there's no reason not to do it.
In fact, it would be irrational to not take that opportunity.




Incorrect, just because there are no spiritual ramifications when you steal breath from another, doesnt mean you havent failed utterly at being a human being if you decide that all you have to do with the life you have is pleasure yourself. Society is here to offer you shelter and food, a state of grace we often take for granted. Why should it be natural for you to steal? Or murder others of your species to grant yourself financial satisfaction? From what you've said so far, that could also be seen as an incredibly unnatural thing to do. I dont believe common decency and compassion are only gifted to human beings via religious constructs, rather the religion has grown in an attempt to map the human heart.


Quoted from Drahnier:


The same thing applies to any other horrific act you can think of, like raping a child or something.

The fact is that i've never really cared about what happens to other people, and doing those things wouldn't make me feel bad.
And because i don't have these irrational feelings of guilt, there is absolutely no logical reason for me to NOT hurt another person in order to gain advantages for myself.




Oh, you were born with only the muscle-heart, not an emotional heart.

Quoted from Drahnier:


I don't care if my actions are considered immoral, there's no reason for me to follow some obscure moral code.
I prefer to follow logic.
I think the only logical thing for me to do is to do anything i can to make life easier for myself, and whether i hurt other people or not in the process is really irrelevant, because that's not MY problem.




Life will be easier for you if you do not have to strive and earn anything yourself? The only conflict will be the clash of knife against bone as you slaughter some wealthy unfortunate? I am curious as to why your intelligence doesnt make you disdain the life of a cuckoo bird. If you live your life that way, have you ever considered that it might repulse other human beings, and leave you alone? You do not want to be loved? An animal makes it's life as easy for itself as possible, taking every opportunity at hand. You, free of religion, care and conscience..choose to be nothing more than an animal. That's very curious to me, my intellect would shame me to suicide for living such a life, if nothing else.

Quoted from Drahnier:


I mean, since i don't believe in a god or a life after death, why the hell would i NOT try to enjoy my life as much as possible while i still have it?
It really seems like the only rational thing to do.

Does this make sense to you?


I cant imagine killing people would make one enjoy life as much as possible, but if I were sans a heart, sans a conscience and sans a soul, it might indeed be an option. I wouldnt be satisfied by the creature I saw in the mirror, not at all. And I would secretly yearn for Snowqueene to find me and kill me before I could to more harm unto others ; )

I hope I did that quote thingy correctly, here goes.
I open once and you call me devil's gateway[/whisper] | [whisper] Evil me, oh yeah I know, what good curves can you throw?
This reply was last edited on 03-14-05 08:21:04 AM by Snowy.
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Reply 19 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 08:17:28 AM)
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Quoted from Drahnier:
Quote:
There is a line where it starts to haunt you afterwards

No, i really don't think there is.
I know where my line is. But maybe there's only one way to find out where yours goes.
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Reply 20 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 08:19:54 AM)
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Do you realize other people don't give a shit about you? (generalized quote that can be said for anyone else, mind you) That what you want is not what other people want. If you start following through with this philosophy you'll see you're not going far.

I can really see how it would make sense though, I was of the same mindset and in so many ways still am. But I understand that there are lines that I must make and never cross.

I will not do certain things to better myself. Why? Because I know with action there is reaction. I may steal a mans wallet so I can eat today. But I cannot act dumb-founded when said man comes to beat the shit out of me the next day.

A lot of this mindset is grounded in one thing: trust. I'm telling you, really think about it. Who do you trust?
I'm betting one person: Yourself.

And maybe this is why you choose to lay it all on the line to 'live life to the fullest' or whatever. I don't know. It seems like you're basing a lot of what you think on how you feel. I suppose thats every humans right.

Edit: Im so scattered with my thoughtsMAGUSMAGUSMAGUSMAGUS I'll try and make mroe sense of it I swear.
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Reply 21 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 08:28:06 AM)
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Goatstack, I'm not understanding a word you're saying.

Quoted from goatstack:
Do you realize other people don't give a shit about you? (generalized quote that can be said for anyone else, mind you)
Of course he does, he doesnt care about them either, what exactly does that have to do with anything?
Quote:
That what you want is not what other people want. If you start following through with this philosophy you'll see you're not going far.
why not?
Quote:
I can really see how it would make sense though, I was of the same mindset and in so many ways still am. But I understand that there are lines that I must make and never cross.
That's all good and well, you show you know how he feels ... but then don't explain it? what the hell are these lines you're making?
Quote:
I will not do certain things to better myself. Why? Because I know with action there is reaction. I may steal a mans wallet so I can eat today. But I cannot act dumb-founded when said man comes to beat the shit out of me the next day.
Drah just said, several times, in just about every post even, that there IS NO CHANCE of getting caught in this particular example.

Quote:
A lot of this mindset is grounded in one thing: trust. I'm telling you, really think about it. Who do you trust?
I'm betting one person: Yourself.
seriously, what? how? trust? where did trust enter the picture, who said anything about trusting anyone?

Quote:
And maybe this is why you choose to lay it all on the line to 'live life to the fullest' or whatever. I don't know. It seems like you're basing a lot of what you think on how you feel. I suppose thats every humans right.
still not understanding. please explain.

Quote:
Edit: Im so scattered with my thoughtsMAGUSMAGUSMAGUSMAGUS I'll try and make mroe sense of it I swear.
ohok, I'll be patient.
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drahnier
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Reply 22 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 08:45:58 AM)
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Incorrect, just because there are no spiritual ramifications when you steal breath from another, doesnt mean you havent failed utterly at being a human being if you decide that all you have to do with the life you have is pleasure yourself.

I couldn't care less about whether i've "failed as a human being" or not.
What IS a human being anyway?

My main goal in life must be to do anything i can to get advantages for myself and make things easier for me, not to live up to some obscure standard of what a "human being" is supposed to be.

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Society is here to offer you shelter and food, a state of grace we often take for granted. Why should it be natural for you to steal? Or murder others of your species to grant yourself financial satisfaction? From what you've said so far, that could also be seen as an incredibly unnatural thing to do. I dont believe common decency and compassion are only gifted to human beings via religious constructs, rather the religion has grown in an attempt to map the human heart.

I can't tell you why it "should be natural", but it IS natural for me.

There are certain people who don't work like you do, who don't have a conscience that makes them feel bad about hurting other people.
They're usually called "psychopaths".

And i believe that i'm one of them.
So are plenty of other people, some of them become criminal junkies that live on the street, some of them become presidents of big and powerful companies.

You can really find them in any class of society.

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my intellect would shame me to suicide for living such a life, if nothing else.

That's not your intellect, it's your emotions.

There's really nothing rational about them.

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I cant imagine killing people would make one enjoy life as much as possible, but if I were sans a heart, sans a conscience and sans a soul, it might indeed be an option. I wouldnt be satisfied by the creature I saw in the mirror, not at all. And I would secretly yearn for Snowqueene to find me and kill me before I could to more harm unto others ; )

If you were this "creature" that you described, then yes, you WOULD be satisfied by what you saw in the mirror.
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Reply 23 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 09:07:43 AM)
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Alright, so tell me...what brought you here and why have you stayed so long? Doth the psychopath desire company? What need does this display?
I open once and you call me devil's gateway[/whisper] | [whisper] Evil me, oh yeah I know, what good curves can you throw?
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Reply 24 of 74 (Originally posted on: 03-14-05 09:42:12 AM)
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I don't know, i like it here.

What need do you think it displays?

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Doth the psychopath desire company?

Yes?
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