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Should public show of religion be illegal??
This poll has expired.
Yes! Religion causes problems 4 votes, 6.78%
Yes! Religion is retarted 6 votes, 10.169%
Yes! Who the fuck had the idea in the first place? 4 votes, 6.78%
Yes! Religious people should be shot on sight 7 votes, 11.864%
No! People should be able to express themselves openly 38 votes, 64.407%
Totals: 59 votes, 103.058%
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(Originally posted on: 03-08-05 11:32:20 PM)
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Think of it this way, most of the major conflicts in the world have either been caused by religion or religion has been an accuse/cover up for them.

1) The Crusades - Christians killing muslems
2) The Roman era - Romans killing christians
3) Twin towers - Jahid(holy war)
4) Veitnam - Because they were communists
5) The Inquisition - Catholics killing others?
6) The 1600's - Catholics persecuting puritans, etc. Which in turn led them to come to the United States and massacre the native indians.
7) The whole thing between Israel & Palestine - They are fighing over their holy temple/city or something. This has been going on for a long time.
8) Catholic priests raping little boys - Where in the bible(which is still what their religion is based on right?) does it say that having sex with females is a bad thing? On the contrary..."God slaughtered the ppl in soddom and gomora for being homosexual"

I'm sure there are alot more, I just don't have the time to think of them right now.

Besides the fact that religion causes major/international problems, religions like christianity have been so corrupted, altered and separated into different groups that it causes problems on a more family/individual bases. Whats worse is that people generaly are expected to believe in some kind of religion. For example: I have to see the school(high school) Psychiatrist/Psychologist because im looked on as "abnormal" because I wrote a paper saying "Religion is a fairy tale for adults who are scared of dying".
Our constitution(separation of religion and state? something like that) is violated on a daily basis by authority figures who make decisions supporting christian beliefs, based on the fact that they will get voted in again because the majority are christians. And what about making GAY MARRIAGE ILLEGAL???? I'll tell you right now that I'm not gay, but how the fuck can they do that? I wanna know how the fuck they can get away with such a MAJOR violation of the constitution.
I also want to know how the United States of America can be a major world power while openly admiting to(and even being proud of) having an imaginary friend(God).

Religion for moral values? This is for parents who don't want to spend the time to teach their children properly because they are irresponsible themselves and/or are out till 4 in the morning getting wasted.
It's supprising how many people have an imaginary friend named God.
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Reply 1 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-09-05 12:15:24 AM)
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Causation and correlation are different things.

Religion does not, in itself, cause conflict. The largest religious conflicts/regimes have had underlying cultural and political factors. The religion gig reinforces those, sure, but religion on its own doesn't do terrible stuff.

But yes, fundamentalists are people the world could do without.

Quote:
I also want to know how the United States of America can be a major world power while openly admiting to(and even being proud of) having an imaginary friend(God).
A lot of us would argue the mere fact that the US is a world power proves that societal intelligence is not related to power...
You live and learn. At any rate, you live.
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Reply 2 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-09-05 12:22:58 AM)
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Quote:
Quote:
I also want to know how the United States of America can be a major world power while openly admiting to(and even being proud of) having an imaginary friend(God).
A lot of us would argue the mere fact that the US is a world power proves that societal intelligence is not related to power...


True...though i was merely implying that it should be more of an embarassing thing than something to be proud of.
It's supprising how many people have an imaginary friend named God.
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Reply 3 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-09-05 01:16:29 AM)
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Last time I checked communism wasn't a religious denomination. You just sound angry in this thread, religion is responsible for almost every achievement in the ancient, and medieval world.
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Reply 4 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-09-05 07:21:40 AM)
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No, and retarted isn't a word.
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Reply 5 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-09-05 07:52:38 AM)
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The problem isn't the public show of religion; it's the failure to apply religious principles while showboating the name of the religion. People should be able to publicly display whatever religion they follow, but most people in this world are cunts who like playing "My god kicks your god's ass" on a regular basis.


So:

Quoted from Smokey:
No, and retarted isn't a word.

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Reply 6 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-09-05 08:12:57 AM)
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Neither is "Jahid"

There is just too many one sided, opinionated and ridiculous statements in the original post to even begin talking about those.

Lets just focus on the title here; you want to ban the public showing of religion? You want to ban every church? Every dollar bill? Every religious textbook? You want to ban half the world's art, monuments and buildings?

what are you going to do with the 4 bilion people you're going to have to arrest?

You also want to make a law that directly counters two of the very first amendments in your legal system? Freedom of religion and freedom of speech?

You need to get back in class, forget all you think you know, and start over.

If this thread does not pick up in three posts, it is gone.
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Reply 7 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-09-05 08:23:03 AM)
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Quote:
Think of it this way, most of the major conflicts in the world have either been caused by religion or religion has been an accuse/cover up for them.

"Caused by religion" and "religion used as a cover up" are too very different things you shouldn't list together. The number of wars that can be credited mostly to religion are few.

Quote:
1) The Crusades - Christians killing muslems

Religion was not the cause for the war, although without religion the Crusades wouldn't have been possible. Religion put the soldiers and the cover-up, not the ulterior motives.
Quote:
2) The Roman era - Romans killing christians

None of the Roman wars was fought against Christians - that was merely an internal affair. Just like the Christians, once Christianity became the official religion, went after the pagans. If wars are the topic, the murder of either Christians or pagans isn't more relevant than any slave uprise.
Besides, the reasons why the Romans killed the Christians was political, not religious. The Romans accepted and adopted most deities the conquered peoples worshipped, as long as they didn't go against the official moral, religious and philosophical principles of the Empire.
Quote:
3) Twin towers - Jahid(holy war)

Jihad. Mainly religious, yes.
Quote:
4) Veitnam - Because they were communists

And that relates to religion... how?
Quote:
5) The Inquisition - Catholics killing others?

Again, domestic affair. It wasn't worse than the standard forms of justice of the time, by the way - you can't really separate the Inquisition from the State justice, which often judged identical cases.
Quote:
6) The 1600's - Catholics persecuting puritans, etc. Which in turn led them to come to the United States and massacre the native indians.

I saw a flaw in your logic there. No matter how badly persecuted the protestants were being, that has nothing to do with their massacring native indians.
Secondly, saying that the Catholics were persecuting the puritans is oversimplifying things. There was this thing called 'Reform', and this other thing called 'Counter-reform'. And then both sides fought. Because of religion? No doubt it was an important factor, but not the only one.
Quote:
7) The whole thing between Israel & Palestine - They are fighing over their holy temple/city or something. This has been going on for a long time.

It's more a political conflict than a religious one. Actually, until relatively recent times the religious side of the conflict was pretty small, and most Palestine forces were socialist pan-Arabists or Palestinian nationalists.
Quote:
8) Catholic priests raping little boys - Where in the bible(which is still what their religion is based on right?) does it say that having sex with females is a bad thing? On the contrary..."God slaughtered the ppl in soddom and gomora for being homosexual"

That has nothing to do with religion either... I still have to say one of these priests claiming he had a religious justification for what he did.

Damn, I have to go. I will post this anyway, although I would have liked to expand what I said and to comment on the rest of your post.
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Reply 8 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-09-05 09:09:21 AM)
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The public show of religion is subject to lead to conflict (like fist fights) but so is the expression of any personal belief or preference. Like Mingan says, seperation of church and state (which is not in any way violated by public show of religion)isn't a problem here...your solution to a problem that doesn't exist is to create a problem by violating our freedom of speech and religion. All because you have a personal bias towards religion.
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Reply 9 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-09-05 09:17:23 AM)
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Voted no.

I veiw religion as somewhat of an art guild. IMO Some of the best artworks have religious themes.
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Reply 10 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 01:14:24 AM)
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The point is that religion causes more problems than it solves. If their were no such thing as religion a lot of major conflicts would not have happened. Whether religion was the direct cause or not for them, it added to the problem. And yes, I realize communism isin't a religion, however, it does oppose religion therefore it conflicts with it.

I just think it's sickening to see so many people worshiping another man like a god just because he has the title of 'Pope' or whatever.

Quoted from Kapn Xaos:
I veiw religion as somewhat of an art guild. IMO Some of the best artworks have religious themes.


Yes I agree. However if the world is to make steps toward peace and an end of major conflicts(which will probably never happen) things have to be sacrificed.

I'm not saying that if you get rid of religion that would solve all the worlds problems, I'm just saying it's a start. Because it does contribute to alot of problems. But most people don't want to admit it because they like religion. It gives them a reason to live, clears their consience(eg: going to church), and removes alot of the uncertainty of death.

Look at all of the major world leaders/dictators for a second. They all knew that if they were to create a strong nation to eventially take over the world, they would have to become much more united. Therefore they noticed religion was a threat to this and banned it.
Hitler bannished religion and made Germans worship him. It worked. Germany was immediately united and strengthened. Communism had the same idea. Unfortunately there was not enough technology to cure Hitler of his disease and it rushed him into making mistakes.
It's supprising how many people have an imaginary friend named God.
This reply was last edited on 03-10-05 01:42:36 AM by Fried elephant semen.
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Reply 11 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 03:03:07 AM)
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Quote:
Besides the fact that religion causes major/international problems, religions like christianity have been so corrupted, altered and separated into different groups that it causes problems on a more family/individual bases.

Not necessarily. That will only happen in sectarious families/communities. On the other hand, the same could be said about politics and sports - yes, some people can get very vehement about supporting a football team.
Quote:
Whats worse is that people generaly are expected to believe in some kind of religion. For example: I have to see the school(high school) Psychiatrist/Psychologist because im looked on as "abnormal" because I wrote a paper saying "Religion is a fairy tale for adults who are scared of dying".

I wouldn't have sent you too the Psychiatrist, but to the library so you could read up some stuff, build up your intellect and don't expose your opinion in such an oversimplified manner. Other than that, you're making a generalization from a single event, that would hardly apply outside the US (I assume that's where you're from - correct me if I'm wrong). In Europe, and I'm sure in many parts of the US as well as of the whole world, you're not *expected* to believe in any religion. The problem here is not religion itself, but the close-mindness of some people who want everybody to fit in their patterns - social, political, or yes, religious.
Quote:
Our constitution(separation of religion and state? something like that) is violated on a daily basis by authority figures who make decisions supporting christian beliefs, based on the fact that they will get voted in again because the majority are christians.

Constitutions are subjective texts written by mere mortals, and as such they are constantly being re-interpreted. That said, and with my limited knowledge on American domestic policies, I'll agree with you.
Quote:
And what about making GAY MARRIAGE ILLEGAL???? I'll tell you right now that I'm not gay, but how the fuck can they do that? I wanna know how the fuck they can get away with such a MAJOR violation of the constitution.

Banning gay marriage is not based solely on religion. It's not like if everybody was celebrating homosexual weddings until they converted to Christianity and then said: "Wait, we must leave this ancestral tradition of us, and stop being gay, because now we have a new religion!". Hate towards homosexuals, mingled with some periods of relative tolerance, has been constant throughout history. What I'm trying to say is that the roots of this problem is society itself, regardless of religion.

You seem to have this idea that religion shapes society, but it's quite the opposite. Well, actually it's a reciprocal process of constant feedback, but you can't separate the two nor blame anything on only one of these sides of the same reality. Right now Europe is being much more tolerant towards homosexuality. In a generation or two, the same Christians that today oppose gay marriage will have no problem with it, although their religion will be theoretically the same.
Quote:
I also want to know how the United States of America can be a major world power while openly admiting to(and even being proud of) having an imaginary friend(God).

That's pretty stupid in so many ways.
Quote:
Religion for moral values? This is for parents who don't want to spend the time to teach their children properly because they are irresponsible themselves and/or are out till 4 in the morning getting wasted.

No, TV is for parents who don't want to spend the time to teach their children properly because they are irresponsible themselves and/or are out till 4 in the morning getting wasted. Religion is pretty much for everyone.

Besides, what do you think? That religion teaches itself or something? That parents will give their child a Bible and say: "Here you are: your education!"? No. They will teach the moral values of their religion (some of which are quite universal, IMO) themselves, like they teach their kids not to touch a hot pan.
Quote:
The point is that religion causes more problems than it solves. If their were no such thing as religion a lot of major conflicts would not have happened. Whether religion was the direct cause or not for them, it added to the problem.

I like how you repeated the same thing all over again without answering directly to any counter-argument.

When there's a conflict, EVERYTHING can add to the problem. Does your solution include making all human beings identical so that they have nothing to argue about?

Besides, religion often helped to make things better during conflicts. Ask any peasant who sought refuge in a monastery while his town was being pillaged during the Middle Ages, and he'll most likely agree.
Quote:
And yes, I realize communism isin't a religion, however, it does oppose religion therefore it conflicts with it.

No. The Vietnam war had absolutely nothing to do with religion. It was a mix between a decolonization war and a typical localized conflict of the Cold War.
Quote:
I just think it's sickening to see so many people worshiping another man like a god just because he has the title of 'Pope' or whatever.

Catholics don't worship the Pope as a god, and they would take offence that you should sugges that. They just respect him as their religious leader.
Quote:
Yes I agree. However if the world is to make steps toward peace and an end of major conflicts(which will probably never happen) things have to be sacrificed.

I'd rather not sacrifice cathedrals to make steps towards the totalitarian society you seem to have in mind (where, be sure, there will be the same major conflicts than today).
Quote:
I'm not saying that if you get rid of religion that would solve all the worlds problems, I'm just saying it's a start. Because it does contribute to alot of problems. But most people don't want to admit it because they like religion. It gives them a reason to live, clears their consience(eg: going to church), and removes alot of the uncertainty of death.

The problem here, your basic point, is that differences should be avoided because people will fight over them every now and then.
Quote:
Look at all of the major world leaders/dictators for a second. They all knew that if they were to create a strong nation to eventially take over the world, they would have to become much more united. Therefore they noticed religion was a threat to this and banned it.

What? This is where you cross the borders between merely biased and straight ignorant.

No current world leader wants to take over the world, since that would be of no use to them. What they want, what world leaders have always wanted, is to remain in power.

Secondly, who has banned religion? No one. Not even the Soviet Union, which was founded upon an ideology - communism - which had been pretty anti-religious. I thought you were complaining precisely because religion wasn't banned, anyway.

Religion is not a threat to unity, as a general rule: actually it's one of the strongest agents of social cohesion in world history. In countries with only one major religion, it's been often used to rally the people towards a common goal. In multiethnical countries or whatever, it's been used to strengthen unity (think of the Ottoman Empire with Islam, or Russia with Orthodox Christianity).

What happens is that, in countries with more than one main religion, the people will focus on other things to grant unity (think of the old Yugoslavia, which encomprised several ethnicities and religions, and which was founded on the principles of 'Southern Slavs', and later on, after WW2, on an independent communism, free from the USSR).

My point is that you can't single out religion in this aspect. It is as good or as bad as any other factor.
Quote:
Hitler bannished religion and made Germans worship him. It worked. Germany was immediately united and strengthened. Communism had the same idea. Unfortunately there was not enough technology to cure Hitler of his disease and it rushed him into making mistakes.

False, and I have explained it above.
Quote:
It's supprising how many people have an imaginary friend named God.

It's not surprising, it's the only logical consequence if you just take a look at human history.

Really, your hate towards religion isn't allowing you to make coherent arguments. Calm down and be objective.
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Reply 12 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 09:57:04 AM)
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Quoted from Fried elephant semen:
The point is that religion causes more problems than it solves.


Our point is that you're point is stupid and you should stop repeating your friends because they don't know what they are talking about.

Quoted from FES:
If their were no such thing as religion a lot of major conflicts would not have happened. Whether religion was the direct cause or not for them, it added to the problem. And yes, I realize communism isin't a religion, however, it does oppose religion therefore it conflicts with it.


Under this logic you might aswell suggest we all strip our own personal identities and become just like you to avoid any kind of conflict with each other.

Quoted from FES:
I just think it's sickening to see so many people worshiping another man like a god just because he has the title of 'Pope' or whatever.


Yeah, I'm jealous of the Pope too.

Quoted from FES:

Yes I agree. However if the world is to make steps toward peace and an end of major conflicts(which will probably never happen) things have to be sacrificed.


HAHA!

Quoted from FES:
I'm not saying that if you get rid of religion that would solve all the worlds problems, I'm just saying it's a start. Because it does contribute to alot of problems. But most people don't want to admit it because they like religion. It gives them a reason to live, clears their consience(eg: going to church), and removes alot of the uncertainty of death.


You're right dude! This religion thing really needs to go away what with all the giving people a reason to live, and the clearing of the conscience and eliminating the fear of death this tyranous institution has caused.

Your psycho analysis of a religious person is based on stereotypical christians, but I'll give you that since your information obviously comes from prime time FOX.

Quoted from FES:
Look at all of the major world leaders/dictators for a second. They all knew that if they were to create a strong nation to eventially take over the world, they would have to become much more united. Therefore they noticed religion was a threat to this and banned it.
Hitler bannished religion and made Germans worship him. It worked. Germany was immediately united and strengthened. Communism had the same idea. Unfortunately there was not enough technology to cure Hitler of his disease and it rushed him into making mistakes.


History lessons and a debate class (shock therapy too) is what you need. Aside from being completely wrong, you just started arguing against your own point.

I'm just going to vote this thread be closed.
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Reply 13 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 10:56:18 AM)
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I think it's interesting that for the poll there are 4 separate ways you can say you agree with the originator of the thread, and only one option to disagree with him.
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Reply 14 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 12:43:56 PM)
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i'm suprised that out of 14 votes so far, only half voted no
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Reply 15 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 03:04:13 PM)
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Im suprised people actually voted.
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Reply 16 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 04:10:04 PM)
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I find it difficult to read this thread coherently.

Quote:
1) The Crusades - Christians killing muslems


Religion may have proved to be one of the reasons that the Crusades began, but it is more than just Christians killing Muslims. The Crusades purpose was foremost to gain back the Levant, and to inhibit the spread of the middle-eastern countries. It was an attempted show of chivalry that the Crusades were of great importance to the medieval people.

Quote:
2) The Roman era - Romans killing christians


How so? The Romans treated Christians just like any other radical group in the empire. The Romans could not care for whether their Gods declared that they should kill Christians (which they never did). If you were against the purpose of the empire, you were most likely going to be oppressed.

After the Christians took over, however, inhibitions occured on the grounds that certain Roman events were 'unchristian.' Certainly there were groups which were concerned, such as the radical cults of the time, but most wars afterwards were fought for power, even if under the name of religion.

Quote:
3) Twin towers - Jahid(holy war)


More like a war for their own 'freedom.' It has been claimed that it was a holy war, that it was a fight against the infidels, but even if that is a reason, it's not the highest on Al-Qaeda's priority list. Foremost it is a rebellion against prior American oppression in the middle-east.

Quote:
4) Veitnam - Because they were communists


Most communist nations considered their state secular. While you may get an oddball religious leader, as you can in America, Vietnam was fought on the principle of inhibiting Communist growth in an era when Communism was viewed as an evil system. While there is the potential that Communism could be considered a 'faith' by some, just as Democracy is, in Vietnam's case, North Vietnam was willing to become, more or less, democratically friendly to America. It was only after the failed Imperialistic gains by France, and the fears of Communism that both sides forfeited that idea.

Communism, while it can strongly affect the personal opinion of a person, is just as much of a religion as democracy and fascism are. Some people would die for it, most people don't really give a damn.

Quote:
5) The Inquisition - Catholics killing others?


The Inquisition was never one-sided. It is true that Catholic Jesuits feared the rise of a number of factions, but it's folly could be compared to the numerous times Protestant religions have attempted to irradicate Catholicism or Orthodox Christianity.

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6) The 1600's - Catholics persecuting puritans, etc. Which in turn led them to come to the United States and massacre the native indians.


First, it wasn't the Catholics who persecuted the Puritans. If anything, it was the Anglican church who deemed them inappropriate for England. Both groups publically showed their religion, and in due course it was the radical group, the Puritans, which looked for a paradise elsewhere. At first, they travelled to The Netherlands, however, they could not find what they desired as a 'kingdom of God' there.

Once they did travel to the new world, they established their own de facto system. While it was more focused on their religious beliefs, most wars against the native cultures at the time were not due strictly to religion. Religion was certainly a reason, but it was moreso fear which led to both sides committing atrocities against one another. It is true, as well, that some religious cultures got along well with the native cultures. An example is Catholic New France which had settlers not only befriend some natives, but also live among them and eventually share a family with.

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7) The whole thing between Israel & Palestine - They are fighing over their holy temple/city or something. This has been going on for a long time.


The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is moreso a war fought among the hardcore faithful, as well as policies which have inadvertently failed to work in the first place. It has become a focus between radical Jewish and Muslim groups these days as a means to capture a piece of land which has been a focus of atleast three main sects of religion; however, the origins remain slightly less religious in cause. Initially, the modern conflict began due to bad promises on the part of Great Britain after World War I. Without a clear establishment of a self-governed society, the governments set up in that part of the middle-east were unstable. The Israelis who had began to migrate often were the Jewish people who were seeking religious fortitude among their promised land. After World War II, there was a common belief among some Jewish groups that religious freedom for them would come in the promised land. At first, it seemed the Palestinians did not mind the Jewish groups. Initially, both people shared the same streets, lived among eachother. However, the rise in Israeli population displaced the Palestinian people to go further east, south or north. Contrary to what some people have said, the Palestinians had been living in Palestine for over 1000 years. Some even had land which dated back that far.

It is moreso a fight over land than religion. The Palestinians want to establish land, and some radical groups will do anything to get it back. The Israelis want to expand, to secure their establishment. The radical groups who commit to doing so will do anything to keep what land they have secure for both establishment and expansion.

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8) Catholic priests raping little boys - Where in the bible(which is still what their religion is based on right?) does it say that having sex with females is a bad thing? On the contrary..."God slaughtered the ppl in soddom and gomora for being homosexual"


First, God never 'slaughtered' the people in Sodom or Gomorrah for being strictly homosexual. If anything, the Old Testament states that Sodom and Gomorrah were brandished as elicit, sinful places where sexual promiscuity was one of the reasons. Homosexuality does not equal sexual promiscuity.

Secondly, it's not only Catholic Priests which have raped little boys. Other priests from other groups, such as the more strict Protestant groups, have commited rape with boys. The main cause would seem to be the lack of being able to have sexual relations in the first place. In a time when chastity is not considered a social-norm, the pressure to remain without sex could lead to some people being gravely effected by it. While it's more common for male priests to have sexual relations with boys, there have been cases where females of the order, or girls have been involved. I wouldn't find it unlikely if there are some priests who have raped older women and older men. Yet, keep in mind that most cases of the raping of young boys occurs outside the church, though the Church is certainly not freed of it.

The problem is not a religious issue. The little boys don't often tend to be non-religious at the time that they are raped. If anything, the problem is due to the system to which the religious society is ordained, not the religion itself.

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I'm sure there are alot more, I just don't have the time to think of them right now.


If you looked more deeply in the history of the world, you will realize that most wars were fought over power. Even the ones who you claimed above have been fought over power. Who has more power over another group has always been the prime reason behind wars and conflicts. Religion certainly has been one of the reasons that some conflicts have been commited, but those who are commiting to it usually cite religion as the cause to alleviate the fact that it's over an entirely different issue.

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Besides the fact that religion causes major/international problems, religions like christianity have been so corrupted, altered and separated into different groups that it causes problems on a more family/individual bases. Whats worse is that people generaly are expected to believe in some kind of religion. For example: I have to see the school(high school) Psychiatrist/Psychologist because im looked on as "abnormal" because I wrote a paper saying "Religion is a fairy tale for adults who are scared of dying".


Most likely because you live in a society which may view religion as important. While I agree that Christianity is not nearly close to what it was originally ordained to be, the issues with religion now are not nearly as bad as they were a few decades ago. There has been some improvement, it's just unfortunate that as religions seek reform, more and more radical groups are created. It is these radical groups, as much of a minority as they are, which seem to have such a loud voice in modern society.

Perhaps, if you are truthful about the psychiatrist issue, is that some view you as 'abnormal,' not necessary because of your religious stance, but because of the strength you exhibit with it. To be such a strong opposer to religion in general is a radical viewpoint. Most atheists, agnostics and those who are religious tend to go no further in their religious aptitudes then a debate on religious issues. Most people seek to keep their faith private, or do not seek to convert people through awareness or cohersion. Your paper does not conform to that, thus by some you would most likely be ordained 'abnormal.' Abnormality is not entirely a horrible thing, either. Furthermore, in my own opinion it's not enough to see a psychiatrist over, but stranger things have happened in the educational systems of the world.

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Our constitution(separation of religion and state? something like that) is violated on a daily basis by authority figures who make decisions supporting christian beliefs, based on the fact that they will get voted in again because the majority are christians.


I'm not American; however, you shouldn't take your Constitution as being absolute. Despite the legality of it, your Constitution is a guideline. It is a guideline which people follow, but it's no more a guideline than this forum's 'Terms of Service.' People follow it, but it can be interpreted many ways.

Secondly, the leaders of the US, while they have grand support among the majority of fundamentalist Christians, even some non-fundamentalist Americans, does not simply derive itself on making decisions because of Christian beliefs. The American government, while it is supposed to be secular, is seeking power. To be powerful, they must retain what the public feel, even if it is only over half of what some of the public feels. As for their attempts to get voted in again, there is no reason to focus on Christian beliefs because of that. The current administration can not be voted in again. However, as long as the public remains in support of the way the current administration runs, the administration will not change to gain public support as it seemed to do shortly after September 11th.

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And what about making GAY MARRIAGE ILLEGAL???? I'll tell you right now that I'm not gay, but how the fuck can they do that? I wanna know how the fuck they can get away with such a MAJOR violation of the constitution.


I don't quite understand, do you support Gay Marriage or not? Gay Marriage is a controversial term, not necessarily due to the popularly held opinion that marriage = religion, but because certain religious groups fear for their own seperation from state. The seperation of state and religion works both ways. The state is not supposed to be influenced by religion, and the religions are not told what to do. While some religious groups embrace Gay Marriage, certain groups do not want to be told to do so. It is certainly not as black and white as that, however. Some groups are strongly opposed to anything gay, thus the prospects of gay people marrying concerns them. Other people see Gay Marriage as offensive to their own personal beliefs, and are thus strongly against it.

I do not fully understand your stance as to how Gay Marriage is illegal. Due to the lack of any strong laws either way, certain states can deem it illegal. To be constitutionally illegal, it would have to go through a complex system which would take years. To be federally illegal, it may not take very long, but it can be vetoed by the states.

In Canada, while our constitution is not absolute, as it states so, Gay Marriage relies mostly on the provinces' choice. The Federal government, although it intends to create a federal law for or against it, is not constitutional, and can be overruled eventually - Even if certain strongly opposed provinces end up in government.

What Gay Marriage mostly relies upon are the people of the nation. You elect your leaders, You elect the administration, You sometimes get to vote in referendums. I certainly don't agree with the way the current American administration runs, but as much as some Americans may hate it, it's American people who put it there.

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I also want to know how the United States of America can be a major world power while openly admiting to(and even being proud of) having an imaginary friend(God).


The American government is technically secular, despite the references to God in its society. Most people in American society tend to be Christian, so it's not unlikely the God is referenced once and a while. If anything, as an American your concern should be on those people who want to enforce religion, not to publically show it.

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Religion for moral values? This is for parents who don't want to spend the time to teach their children properly because they are irresponsible themselves and/or are out till 4 in the morning getting wasted.


Sometimes religious moral values work. Sometimes they don't. If a parent wants to use religious moral values, I'm not against it - even publically - as long as what they teach does not conflict with most other people in society.

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The point is that religion causes more problems than it solves. If their were no such thing as religion a lot of major conflicts would not have happened. Whether religion was the direct cause or not for them, it added to the problem. And yes, I realize communism isin't a religion, however, it does oppose religion therefore it conflicts with it.


Personally, I'm not a supporter of a religion outside Agnosticism, if you even consider that a religion; however, religion has its positives. While to some the cons outweight the pros, a world without religion is unimaginable in today's standards. There has never been, atleast in historical standards, a time when there haven't been some people who have been religious. A world without religion is a pipedream, if anything. A world where religion can coincide and work with the state and the people is something which society can strive for in the long term.

Secondly, Communism did conflict with some religion is some Communist states, however, it was not a main priority. The people who were against Communism ranged from those who were religious and those who weren't. Most who were for Communism didn't observe religion as being a focus of it. On the contrary, if you could have picked any other political system which was in conflict with religion, or worked with religion, Communism is one of the systems which does not help support your claim. Authoritarianism, Democracy, Theocracy, Anarchy are systems which can heavily involve themselves in religious affairs. Communism, while it does involve itself, does so minimally.

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I just think it's sickening to see so many people worshiping another man like a god just because he has the title of 'Pope' or whatever.


Most Catholics don't, or no longer view the Pope in extreme high esteem. The Pope is seen as a messenger of God. He is observed as the person to whom Catholics can set an example by. Not all Catholics agree with the Pope, certainly not even all factions of the Church agree with the Pope; however, the Pope helps give his religion strength. It is with the assistance of the Church and the Pope that Catholicism could survive as it does. Likewise, it is with Catholics, that the Church and the Pope can survive.

I do not agree with the Pope. I'm certainly not Catholic, but as long as his views do not effect my views, I see him as I see any other leader. I very well may like him, as much as I may like any leader, but I don't see him as a God, and certainly not as a friend or a neighbor.

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I'm not saying that if you get rid of religion that would solve all the worlds problems, I'm just saying it's a start. Because it does contribute to alot of problems. But most people don't want to admit it because they like religion. It gives them a reason to live, clears their consience(eg: going to church), and removes alot of the uncertainty of death.


As I stated before, a world without religion is unlikely. As well, while religion has its negatives, it also has its positives. Certain people, like yourself, consider the negatives as outweighting the positives, but I have yet to come to any point in your argument which I have not been able to contradict with. If your own argument can be contradicted, as well as those people who see religion as being positive, how much weight does it hold now?

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Look at all of the major world leaders/dictators for a second. They all knew that if they were to create a strong nation to eventially take over the world, they would have to become much more united. Therefore they noticed religion was a threat to this and banned it.

Hitler bannished religion and made Germans worship him. It worked. Germany was immediately united and strengthened. Communism had the same idea. Unfortunately there was not enough technology to cure Hitler of his disease and it rushed him into making mistakes.


Yet, the dictator you referenced failed. The governments which have forfeited religion have, for the most part, failed to survive a hundred years. Even your examples seem flawed. Hitler never bannished Religion, he suppressed it. The people of Germany were welcome to go to their churches. Even the Jewish people, atleast the ones who lived outside the concentration camps, were able to establish their own temples. Heck, even the ones in concentration camps held religious services occasionally - even if being caught would encourage suppression by the Nazis.

Hitler also wasn't worshipped. His beliefs were 'worshipped.' German people saw Hitler as the figurehead of a strong Germany. Nationalism is what drove the German people to view the National Socialists as the forebearers of German freedom. It was not difficult to do so, as the government before the Nazis was new, unestablished, and controversial among the German people; afterall, the German people were used to having an authoritarian society prior to the establishment of the Weimar Republic.

Likewise, Mussolini, despite his comedic nature, embraced religion as the people of Italy were religious. Communism embraced the idea of nationalism, of being a proud Russian, but it also never banished religion. Religion was suppressed, even at times embraced as a means to gain support. Even the Jewish people were given the invitation of the Soviets to populate Eastern Siberia, and some Jewish people actually took that chance. Religion, even under those societies, was never fully eradicated.

Likewise, your reference to Hitler having Parkinson's Disease as a means to why he failed is not strong. Hitler, prior to the outbreak of the disease, was not a strong military leader. He failed many times before, he could have made more logical military choices, and eventually he failed due to it. Not due to his parkinsons, which only began to actively show in his lifestyle in the last few years of his life.

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I think it's interesting that for the poll there are 4 separate ways you can say you agree with the originator of the thread, and only one option to disagree with him.


The originator is biased, it's not likely that he/she would create a poll in support of his/her opposite viewpoints.LOL IM SUCH A FAG!!
I saw a pornstar
that looked just like you;
although he was legal
his name apparently was Robert.
What's the odds?
This reply was last edited on 03-10-05 04:31:25 PM by Sunn O))).
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Reply 17 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 04:48:25 PM)
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Quoted from sunny:
I certainly don't agree with the way the current American administration runs, but as much as some Americans may hate it, it's American people who put it there.

Well I know alot of ppl who hate gay ppl but still feel like its their right to be gay and get married if they want. But their isint shit we can do to change our government!

Quote:
If anything, as an American your concern should be on those people who want to enforce religion, not to publically show it.

Ya your right, i am mainly mad at that and yes it is basically enforced. We have to stand up in class everyday and proclaim our loyalty to god and country.

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I'm not a supporter of a religion outside Agnosticism, if you even consider that a religion; however, religion has its positives. While to some the cons outweight the pros, a world without religion is unimaginable in today's standards. There has never been, atleast in historical standards, a time when there haven't been some people who have been religious. A world without religion is a pipedream, if anything. A world where religion can coincide and work with the state and the people is something which society can strive for in the long term.
This is my dream. Why can't we strive for it now?

Quote:
Hitler never bannished Religion, he suppressed it. The people of Germany were welcome to go to their churches. Hitler also wasn't worshipped. His beliefs were 'worshipped.' German people saw Hitler as the figurehead of a strong Germany.

I like most of the rest of what you said, you kind of just worded my feelings in a different way(proably a better one). However, this is where your wrong. Priests were murdered and imprisoned, churches destroyed &/or replaced by other buildings supporting him(im being quite vague because i dont remember exactly what they did with the churches, but i do know they no longer existed). German children were made to sing a song similar to the one children in the states do...except it wasent about god & country, it was about Hitler. It said something like "Hitler is our saviour, we love him, etc" I don't remember it all. He replaced god/jesus/& whoever else with himself. I just watched a whole documentry about it.

But overall you are all getting caught up on the details and missing the whole point.
The point is to eliminate all the factors that cause death, agony, pain, suffering, and conflict. You have all seemed to miss the fact that everyone involved in these struggles had to go through these things.
It's supprising how many people have an imaginary friend named God.
This reply was last edited on 03-10-05 05:02:19 PM by Fried elephant semen.
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Reply 18 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 05:10:46 PM)
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Well I know alot of ppl who hate gay ppl but still feel like its their right to be gay and get married if they want. But their isint shit we can do to change our government!


Elect a better government!

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Ya your right, i am mainly mad at that and yes it is basically enforced.


I never stated it was enforced, moreso that there are people who want it enforced.

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This is my dream. Why can't we strive for it now?


Your dream, atleast from what this thread offers, is to eradicate religion, not to coincide with it. You strive for it by involving yourself in the means to get it: Become a politician, Become a priest, protest and influence by informing, not persuading or enforcing. There are countless ways you can strive for change, but it takes time if any change is going to come about.

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However, this is where your wrong. Priests were murdered and imprisoned, churches destroyed &/or replaced by other buildings supporting him(im being quite vague because i dont remember exactly what they did with the churches, but i do know they no longer existed). German children were made to sing a song similar to the one children in the states do...except it wasent about god & country, it was about Hitler. It said something like "Hitler is our saviour, we love him, etc" I don't remember it all. He replaced god/jesus/& whoever else with himself. I just watched a whole documentry about it.


If you were a priest, and you opposed the Nazi government, it was likely that you were going to be treated differently. Likewise, this applies to any other Nazi opposition. Hitler supported secularism, the Nazis suppressed religion, but most German people still participated in religion. What I don't understand is this concept that you have about Hitler creating a 'religion.' The Nazis did not consider Hitler a God. They did not seek to see him as their savior, and most churches were not destroyed if the leaders of that Church did not publically oppose National Socialism.

Nazis didn't remove Christ figures from Churches. In fact, the Nazis often involved themselves in gaining forms of art which involved Christian relics. A German person was able to go to their church, a Jewish person could still celebrate Jewish traditions, yet it was not encouraged.

As for a state religion, I believe you are confusing Nationalism with Religion. Supporters of National Socialism saw Hitler as a figurehead of Germany, not as a deity. As far as some supporters were concerned, he was Germany, but Germany was the limit. He had power, but that power was not otherworldly.
I saw a pornstar
that looked just like you;
although he was legal
his name apparently was Robert.
What's the odds?
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Reply 19 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 05:37:00 PM)
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Quoted from Sunny:
If you were a priest, and you opposed the Nazi government, it was likely that you were going to be treated differently. Likewise, this applies to any other Nazi opposition. Hitler supported secularism, the Nazis suppressed religion, but most German people still participated in religion. What I don't understand is this concept that you have about Hitler creating a 'religion.' The Nazis did not consider Hitler a God. They did not seek to see him as their savior, and most churches were not destroyed if the leaders of that Church did not publically oppose National Socialism.

Nazis didn't remove Christ figures from Churches. In fact, the Nazis often involved themselves in gaining forms of art which involved Christian relics. A German person was able to go to their church, a Jewish person could still celebrate Jewish traditions, yet it was not encouraged.

Really.... ehh? Well I guess the documentry I watched wasen't really factual then...Oh well it doesn't really matter...it's not that important.
It's supprising how many people have an imaginary friend named God.
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Reply 20 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 06:54:07 PM)
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Quoted from Fried elephant semen:
Quoted from Sunny:
If you were a priest, and you opposed the Nazi government, it was likely that you were going to be treated differently. Likewise, this applies to any other Nazi opposition. Hitler supported secularism, the Nazis suppressed religion, but most German people still participated in religion. What I don't understand is this concept that you have about Hitler creating a 'religion.' The Nazis did not consider Hitler a God. They did not seek to see him as their savior, and most churches were not destroyed if the leaders of that Church did not publically oppose National Socialism.

Nazis didn't remove Christ figures from Churches. In fact, the Nazis often involved themselves in gaining forms of art which involved Christian relics. A German person was able to go to their church, a Jewish person could still celebrate Jewish traditions, yet it was not encouraged.

Really.... ehh? Well I guess the documentry I watched wasen't really factual then...Oh well it doesn't really matter...it's not that important.


Documentaries can be biased, and interpreted in different ways; Although, they should not be the basis of a historical argument.
I saw a pornstar
that looked just like you;
although he was legal
his name apparently was Robert.
What's the odds?
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Reply 21 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 07:29:28 PM)
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Ok. So it seems like most people think(or just don't want to admit) that getting rid of religion would have very little or no effect at all on helping out all those people who suffer and die every day.
So what do you suggest we do to attempt to help all those people? Please don't say nothing, because all that would do is show that you are a naive little bastard who cares nothing for the suffering of other people.

Lets say for a second that you are the dictator of a one world government. What would you do?
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Reply 22 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 07:37:22 PM)
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There are religious organizations that actually do help people rather than harm them, so I don't understand your challenge.

And if I had a dictatorship, I'd take care of my people and let them worship whomever they pleased, as long as they didn't harm others. Then I'd play Big Brother and put them in solitary.

It's not really a good challenge because your point has very weak contributing arguments.
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Reply 23 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 07:45:42 PM)
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Quoted from Fried elephant semen:
Lets say for a second that you are the dictator of a one world government. What would you do?

For one, I'd step down as dictator. Regardless of what I personally think my morals and values are, I don't know if I'd be able to withstand the temptation of abusing my power. No one person should have control over the world.

You say that people in this thread don't want to admit that getting rid of religion would help people who are currently suffering. Even if you were to assume that all the other points you've made about how detrimental religion has been in the past (an assertion that I think has been clearly refuted, but moving on) what benefits to the current population would be achieved though getting rid of religion?
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Reply 24 of 114 (Originally posted on: 03-10-05 07:55:48 PM)
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Quote:
Ok. So it seems like most people think(or just don't want to admit) that getting rid of religion would have very little or no effect at all on helping out all those people who suffer and die every day.

So what do you suggest we do to attempt to help all those people? Please don't say nothing, because all that would do is show that you are a naive little bastard who cares nothing for the suffering of other people.


What exactly do people suffering have to deal with eradicating religion? Sure, there are religious practices which do and have caused suffering, but what about those which have attempted to alleviate suffering - especially in the case of charity organizations? It may not be helping much, but it's a religious group who is trying.

Quote:
Lets say for a second that you are the dictator of a one world government. What would you do?


Not stay as a dictator, and realize that considering a one-world government has been set up, despite the unlikeliness of that being so, that it most likely means that there is very little conflict anymore.

Your points in this argument have been contradicting, or confusing at best. Your initial belief is that religion should be illegal, yet all the points you originally made have been negated, leading to a weakly supported argument. You have now moved onto the belief that suffering is somehow involved, but there are religious groups who have arguably helped alleviate suffering. Why should public shows of religion be illegalized then?
I saw a pornstar
that looked just like you;
although he was legal
his name apparently was Robert.
What's the odds?
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