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bicentennialman

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(Originally posted on: 12-01-04 09:40:15 PM)
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I was having a conversation regarding virginity with a female friend of mine. She isn't sure if she's a virgin, for a few reasons.
1) She has participated in penetrative, vagnial sex with a male. However, it was non-consensual (RAPE!), mainly because she was passed out at the time, and wouldn't have agreed to sex with him.
2) She has had oral sex with both men and women, and digital (fingering) sex. That's a weird phrase.

This is where the difficulty arises. Since oral and digital is as far as she can go without the aid of other devices, that is the equivalent of penetrative, vaginal sex with a man. So she's not a lesbian virgin.

But she thinks she might be a virgin with guys because she hasn't engaged in consensual sex with one.

I say that's a double standard, and either oral sex or penetrative sex is what counts, not one for lesbian relationships and one for heterosexual relationships.

My apologies for the technical terms.
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Reply 1 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-01-04 10:30:28 PM)
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Quote:
However, it was non-consensual (RAPE!)

That doesn't matter at all. She's not a virgin.
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Reply 2 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-01-04 10:49:31 PM)
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Quoted from Marcher:
Quote:
However, it was non-consensual (RAPE!)

That doesn't matter at all. She's not a virgin.


I agree, sex is sex
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Reply 3 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-01-04 11:04:21 PM)
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Its actually an interesting idea, although not pleasant. Physically she's not a virgin, but the flip side is that she's a virgin 'at heart'.

Who the fuck am I kidding, she's a whore*.


* Usage of whore only as a antonym for virgin. No offence, I'm sure she's a saint.
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Reply 4 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-01-04 11:23:04 PM)
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Upon having a male's penis in her vagina, a girl is no longer a virgin.

By this standard, she is not a virgin.
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Reply 5 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-02-04 08:48:18 AM)
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So the only thing that devirginizes a woman is having a penis inserted into her vagina? Does it have to be an authentic male penis, or can a lesbian's strap-on work the same way? On that same vein, when a gay male inserts his penis into another male's anus, is he still a virgin because it's not a vagina? Are the only defining qualities of virginity heterosexual vaginal intercourse, or should the definitions be broadened to incorporate other acts?
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bicentennialman

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Reply 6 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-02-04 02:32:11 PM)
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So oral sex doesn't count as losing her virginity, either?
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Reply 7 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-02-04 06:55:19 PM)
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Virgin: A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse.

So, I guess that means she's "technically" not a virgin. But I agree with Ein:

Quoted from Ein:
virgin 'at heart'


By not choosing to have sex, she can count herself as a virgin, I mean, some girls go through a "born again" process, why can't a girl who didn't say "yes" be able to do something similar? I feel really awful for your friend. I can't imagine having my first time not being with someone I loved and trusted. How is she dealing with this?


Quote:
Who the fuck am I kidding, she's a whore*.

* Usage of whore only as a antonym for virgin. No offence, I'm sure she's a saint.



This made me LOL Ein... Thanks for making me laugh LOL IM SUCH A FAG!!


One last thing: What happened to the asshole who took advantage of your friend? Please tell me he's behind bars for about a million years for doing something so heinous to an innocent girl. If not, we should all get together and cut his balls off as punishment.
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Reply 8 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-02-04 08:42:15 PM)
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Why does it matter how the term is applied when it comes to sex acts other than the basic cock in cunt definition that is the norm? The social obsession with virginity is pretty damned pointless.
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Reply 9 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-02-04 09:58:08 PM)
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Quoted from uselessinformation:
Why does it matter how the term is applied when it comes to sex acts other than the basic cock in cunt definition that is the norm? The social obsession with virginity is pretty damned pointless.
Agreed. I'm sick of people putting so much importance on "virginity". It's not important, folks. If you've have or have been penetrated, you are not a virgin. You may not have wanted to have sex, but you've had it. There is no such thing as an emotional virgin, that's a stupid concept.
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Reply 10 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-02-04 10:04:13 PM)
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virgin ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vrjn)
n.

1. A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse.
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Reply 11 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-03-04 12:50:51 AM)
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Agree with uselessinformation and Arnok. The status of virginity is built up way more than it need be.

I understand that what happened to this poor girl was traumatic, and perhaps attempting to reclaim her virginity is what she feels would be a way to recover some of the dignity and self-respect that was lost when she was assaulted, but denying what happened to her in an attempt to accomplish this is a bad idea. She'd be better off accepting what happened physically and moving along instead of trying to cling desperately to someone she no longer is. That she has not experienced intercourse in a way she would have wanted is personally significant, but measuring onesself by how "pure" one is sexually is a pointless contest. Truthfully, it doesn't matter if she is a virgin or not, and anybody who would judge her based on that is an idiot.
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Reply 12 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-03-04 09:02:38 AM)
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Quoted from Spiff:
Truthfully, it doesn't matter if she is a virgin or not, and anybody who would judge her based on that is an idiot.


I couldn't agree more.
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Reply 13 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-03-04 12:56:00 PM)
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Quoted from Arnok:
Agreed. I'm sick of people putting so much importance on "virginity". It's not important, folks.


I disagree with this. Some people (guys and girls) cherish they're virginity. I was very proud to be a virgin, until I found the right man and I wanted to be with him totally. I know some people don't put the same value on virginity as I did, but to say that it's totally not important is a little unfair.

I know that it's not as important to society as it used to be, but to some people, it's a big deal. I'm not trying to attack your post here, I know that's kind of what it looks like, but I'm not.
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Reply 14 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-03-04 01:44:25 PM)
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Quoted from Juranti:
Quoted from Arnok:
Agreed. I'm sick of people putting so much importance on "virginity". It's not important, folks.


I disagree with this. Some people (guys and girls) cherish they're virginity. I was very proud to be a virgin, until I found the right man and I wanted to be with him totally. I know some people don't put the same value on virginity as I did, but to say that it's totally not important is a little unfair.

I know that it's not as important to society as it used to be, but to some people, it's a big deal. I'm not trying to attack your post here, I know that's kind of what it looks like, but I'm not.
I know you're not attacking me, nor am I attacking you, but let me ask you a question. Why is virginity so important to you? And let's go beyond "it's special" and "once you lose it you can never get it back". What I see is that it's important to a religion-influenced society because virgins are supposedly wholesome and pure and sacred things.

Now, I'm not a woman, and who knows, maybe being penetrated for the first time is really a special thing (aside from being pretty fucking painful), but I personally don't know any men who have cherished their virginity. I've known plenty who've wanted desperately to lose their virginity. That notion I can better understand (sex is nice. Besides, it's our instinct to reproduce) but I still think that people who are racing to lose it are just about as stupid as those clinging to it so desperately.
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This reply was last edited on 12-03-04 01:52:00 PM by Scruffy - The Janitor.
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Reply 15 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-03-04 01:55:37 PM)
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Arnok is definitely right about the predominant Christian culture, which dictates that sex is a gift that is shared between a man and women who have made the covenant of marriage with God. However, I think that this notion of celibacy until marriage is especially reinforced in women since society in general frowns more upon women having sex (slut, whore) than men having sex (ladies' man). Both of these impress an unhealthy mental complex.
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Reply 16 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-03-04 02:15:41 PM)
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I do place an importance in being a virgin and yes it has partly to do with my "STRICT" christain upbringing.
I believe am a virgin even though i've sucked a guy's cock before because I have not had any form of SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.
sexual intercourse: the act of sexual procreation between a man and a woman; the man's penis is inserted into the woman's vagina and excited until orgasm and ejaculation occur.

With that said, nothing has gone up my vagina yet....except for tampon ofcourse.
No one would buy a pair of shoes without trying them on. Why should anyone be expected to get married without premarital sex?
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Reply 17 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-03-04 04:25:09 PM)
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Well she hasnt exactly experienced sexual intercourse seeing though she was passed out and all.

Quoted from Arnok:
Quoted from Juranti:
Quoted from Arnok:
Agreed. I'm sick of people putting so much importance on "virginity". It's not important, folks.


I disagree with this. Some people (guys and girls) cherish they're virginity. I was very proud to be a virgin, until I found the right man and I wanted to be with him totally. I know some people don't put the same value on virginity as I did, but to say that it's totally not important is a little unfair.

I know that it's not as important to society as it used to be, but to some people, it's a big deal. I'm not trying to attack your post here, I know that's kind of what it looks like, but I'm not.
I know you're not attacking me, nor am I attacking you, but let me ask you a question. Why is virginity so important to you? And let's go beyond "it's special" and "once you lose it you can never get it back". What I see is that it's important to a religion-influenced society because virgins are supposedly wholesome and pure and sacred things.

Now, I'm not a woman, and who knows, maybe being penetrated for the first time is really a special thing (aside from being pretty fucking painful), but I personally don't know any men who have cherished their virginity. I've known plenty who've wanted desperately to lose their virginity. That notion I can better understand (sex is nice. Besides, it's our instinct to reproduce) but I still think that people who are racing to lose it are just about as stupid as those clinging to it so desperately.


I like the idea of losing my virginity to somebody I love, because it makes it somewhat more meaningful. After that I couldn't care less.
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Reply 18 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-03-04 05:13:33 PM)
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This is just my opinion, but I think it's mostly just about being happy with yourself. When I was a virgin, for example, although I perhaps looked forward to the time when I would first have sex, I wasn't unhappy with the part of my identity that denoted my not getting any. In fact, I felt somewhat safer as a virgin, because not fully understanding what I was getting myself into was not something I really wanted to deal with at the time. The emotional risk simply felt too great for me to take on. Notions of purity and promiscuity aside, losing one's virginity is a change, pure and simple. You may think slightly differently about your sexuality after it happens, you may emotionally feel different, or, particularly in the case of women, you may be physically changed. How you view your virginity is really all about how you think about yourself.

If a person wants to preserve themselves until he/she feels emotionally ready, that's fine. If not, that's fine too. It's all about when you feel ready to change this aspect of your life. Social pressure may make one choice seem more popular than another, but it's really nobody's business or choice other than your own.
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Reply 19 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-04-04 04:31:04 AM)
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I imagine if I were a virgin who was violated while unconscious, I would still identify with being a virgin.
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Reply 20 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-06-04 09:19:52 PM)
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Quoted from Arnok:
I know you're not attacking me, nor am I attacking you, but let me ask you a question. Why is virginity so important to you? And let's go beyond "it's special" and "once you lose it you can never get it back". What I see is that it's important to a religion-influenced society because virgins are supposedly wholesome and pure and sacred things.

Now, I'm not a woman, and who knows, maybe being penetrated for the first time is really a special thing (aside from being pretty fucking painful), but I personally don't know any men who have cherished their virginity. I've known plenty who've wanted desperately to lose their virginity. That notion I can better understand (sex is nice. Besides, it's our instinct to reproduce) but I still think that people who are racing to lose it are just about as stupid as those clinging to it so desperately.



A person who can accept that not everyone will agree?? You are a rare breed Arnok. +Karma to you! i'm a serial-killer :)

I wasn't so much thinking about "once I lose it I can't get it back", and for a while I was clinging to it (because I was a hopeless romantic teenager who didn't know shit). My reasons for waiting were not religious ones (I'm a far cry from a religious person LOL IM SUCH A FAG!!). I did think "it's special" but not as in "it's a sign of purity and innocence" or anything like that. I was thinking more that it was special in the sense that I held off, waiting for my Mr. Right and then sharing something with him that was an intimate thing. I had never been close enough to anyone else to want to experience sex. It was more of a sign of my trust in my boyfriend, as well as my love for him and not just something purely sexual. It was my way of showing him that I was ready to let go of any inhibitions and ready to share absolutely everything with him. And you're right. It hurt like a sonofabitch. I actually started to cry a little(way to wreck the moment, right?)

I, too, cannot think of one man I know who has cherished his virginity. I guess women are a little more sensitive when it comes to that sort of thing (some women anyway). Maybe it's because some women consider their bodies private and personal things and to have another person enter that body is a spiritual and emotional experience. I dunno. Just a guess.
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Reply 21 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-12-04 04:40:42 PM)
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Consensual sexual engagement is sex, and is the point at which you lose virginity, imo.
Rape can't be classified as an act during which you lose virginity, because it was never her intention at any point. I would never hold it against a woman that has been raped, if she wanted to consider herself a virgin.

To me, virginity tells alot about a person's moral standards. Of course, it's not a big indicator of character, for that you just need to get to know a person.
In that sense, the most truthfull statement in this thread is :

Quoted from Spiff:
Truthfully, it doesn't matter if she is a virgin or not, and anybody who would judge her based on that is an idiot.

Ok, that's good to know...

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Reply 22 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-12-04 08:27:19 PM)
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Quoted from Menion:
Consensual sexual engagement is sex, and is the point at which you lose virginity, imo.


No, sex is sex, regardless of consent. A person who was raped may not have intended to lose their virginity, but it happened. It's a terrible thing that they were raped, but get real. Considering yourself to be something doesn't mean that you are something.
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Reply 23 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-15-04 10:09:48 PM)
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Quoted from uselessinformation:
Quoted from Menion:
Consensual sexual engagement is sex, and is the point at which you lose virginity, imo.


No, sex is sex, regardless of consent. A person who was raped may not have intended to lose their virginity, but it happened. It's a terrible thing that they were raped, but get real. Considering yourself to be something doesn't mean that you are something.


I know what you're saying and it's true, but it also depends on how you define virginity. I see virginity as sexual purity, not simply the black and white question of "Sex: Yes, No?"
Some would say that finger sex and/or oral sex also don't count against virginity, since they don't fit the "Penis + Vagina = Sex" equation. However, I see those as deliberate consensual acts of sexual engagement, wherein you lose your purity. I don't say that losing your virginity/purity is a bad thing at all, I'm just laying out what I define as "pure" or "virgin".
Based on that, I still consider anyone that has been raped as pure, and therefore a virgin.

Now, we could get technical and research the definition, however, I think it's a subject that no matter what the OED says, each person is going to have their own defenition and opinion.
Ok, that's good to know...

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Reply 24 of 82 (Originally posted on: 12-22-04 03:30:10 PM)
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"Virginity" is viewed differently, obviously if you've been performing sexual acts for awhile, sexual intercourse won't be much of a change, therefore putting less meaning into virginity. In today's society the majority of people will have had sex before they leave high school, so sexual acts are losing moral importance.
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