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Coca-Cola
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(Originally posted on: 11-04-04 03:30:54 PM)
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I heard this sort of third hand but here's what happened. So my mom was talking to my grandmother who had been talking to my great great aunt earlier yesterday. My great great aunt has been living in Florida her entire life and recently moved to Kentucky to be closer to other family (mostly of which I don't know, distant cousins). Anyways, where in the U.S is irrelevant.

She called my grandmother and was quite upset. They had a long conversation about how her grandson has to go back to fight in Iraq, and how awful this whole thing is. She was even crying.

To end off the conversation, she let out a sigh and said "at least we can be darn thankful that Bush got re-elected." She was not even joking in the least.

I have nothing more to say; I'm just confused.
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Reply 1 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 03:40:50 PM)
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i've been trying to think of an intellegent reply to her statement for a while, but there are none. what she said makes no sense
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Reply 2 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 03:42:53 PM)
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From what I understand, of what voters saw as important vote-changing topics, Iraq was 5th preceeding Terrorism and coming up behind the Economy; hence, it really wasn't seen as that important.

Moral Issues came up first. Which means that people who take moral issues to heart the most voted for Bush. Kerry had good control of Jobs, Ecomomy, Iraq, and Terrorism. Bush only had Moral Issues and Taxes (which came up last in the list). Moral Issues such as gay marriage and abortion won him the election.
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Reply 3 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 04:04:24 PM)
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Go fucking figure.


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Reply 4 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 04:09:31 PM)
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A scared and ignorant populace = Bush re-elected.

A very simple equation, yet true.
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Reply 5 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 04:23:49 PM)
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Yeah some may see Bush's issues as moral - moral if you're a white straight Christian who acts exactly how an American (from a republican standpoint) is supposed to act.

After thinking about this some more, I think that people are scared of change. Bush is a familiar face to Americans and it gives some a sense of comfort. I mean if you've lived your whole life in prejudice already and you're too ignorant to know the difference, then Bush would seem like a great guy.

EDIT: Yeah, what Dante just said before me.
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Reply 6 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 05:39:40 PM)
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Quoted from British Agent:
Kerry had good control of Jobs, Ecomomy, Iraq, and Terrorism. Bush only had Moral Issues and Taxes (which came up last in the list).


Bull, Bush kicked ass with the economy. Remember that good old recession we got because Clinton didn't know what the hell he was doing while he was riding on the economic boom from Reagan and Bush Sr's terms? Yeah, Bush made that recession his bitch. Kerry would've plunged the US into another recession. If I were to vote for Kerry it would've been for his position on civil rights and foreign relations, he would've done horrible with the Economy. If I were to vote for Bush, it would've been for the economy. Instead, I voted for who would do well with both: good old Badnarik.
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Reply 7 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 05:53:40 PM)
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What I don't understand is how a plurality of Americans view "moral issues" (i.e., gays and abortion) as a more critical issue than terrorism and Iraq and the budget deficit. Are we really living in such a fundamentalist society?
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Reply 8 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 06:01:36 PM)
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Quoted from Socrateius:
Quoted from British Agent:
Kerry had good control of Jobs, Ecomomy, Iraq, and Terrorism. Bush only had Moral Issues and Taxes (which came up last in the list).


Bull, Bush kicked ass with the economy. Remember that good old recession we got because Clinton didn't know what the hell he was doing while he was riding on the economic boom from Reagan and Bush Sr's terms? Yeah, Bush made that recession his bitch. Kerry would've plunged the US into another recession. If I were to vote for Kerry it would've been for his position on civil rights and foreign relations, he would've done horrible with the Economy. If I were to vote for Bush, it would've been for the economy. Instead, I voted for who would do well with both: good old Badnarik.

Finally a sensible person speaks (though I don't quite agree Kerry would do good with foreign relations, but all the same. I do prefer the slim to nonexistant connection Kerry has with religion and politics over Bush's, though).
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Reply 9 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 06:03:39 PM)
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Quoted from BB:
What I don't understand is how a plurality of Americans view "moral issues" (i.e., gays and abortion) as a more critical issue than terrorism and Iraq and the budget deficit. Are we really living in such a fundamentalist society?

I think that the main moral issue here is Iraq.
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Reply 10 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 06:04:02 PM)
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Quoted from BB:
What I don't understand is how a plurality of Americans view "moral issues" (i.e., gays and abortion) as a more critical issue than terrorism and Iraq and the budget deficit. Are we really living in such a fundamentalist society?

A lot of people believe that lack of morals leads to the breakdown of society.
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Reply 11 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 06:10:18 PM)
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Quoted from Socrateius:
Quoted from British Agent:
Kerry had good control of Jobs, Ecomomy, Iraq, and Terrorism. Bush only had Moral Issues and Taxes (which came up last in the list).


Bull, Bush kicked ass with the economy. Remember that good old recession we got because Clinton didn't know what the hell he was doing while he was riding on the economic boom from Reagan and Bush Sr's terms? Yeah, Bush made that recession his bitch. Kerry would've plunged the US into another recession. If I were to vote for Kerry it would've been for his position on civil rights and foreign relations, he would've done horrible with the Economy. If I were to vote for Bush, it would've been for the economy. Instead, I voted for who would do well with both: good old Badnarik.


How can you say that, when your country has entered the largest defecit in its history, from its largest surplus?

I mean, without lying.
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Reply 12 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 06:35:46 PM)
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Quoted from Socrateius:
Quoted from British Agent:
Kerry had good control of Jobs, Ecomomy, Iraq, and Terrorism. Bush only had Moral Issues and Taxes (which came up last in the list).


Bull, Bush kicked ass with the economy. Remember that good old recession we got because Clinton didn't know what the hell he was doing while he was riding on the economic boom from Reagan and Bush Sr's terms? Yeah, Bush made that recession his bitch. Kerry would've plunged the US into another recession. If I were to vote for Kerry it would've been for his position on civil rights and foreign relations, he would've done horrible with the Economy. If I were to vote for Bush, it would've been for the economy. Instead, I voted for who would do well with both: good old Badnarik.


I never stated an opinion here, nor do I know if Kerry would have been better or worse for the economy (and we'll never find out). What I said was that, and am elaborating on, is that Kerry controled the economic vote in the US. Which means that over 50% of the people who decided that the Economy was the most important issue of the election voted for Kerry.

If I can get a hold of the fact sheet from my AP Government teacher, I'll copy it here.

Quote:
How can you say that, when your country has entered the largest defecit in its history, from its largest surplus?

I mean, without lying.


Obviously Clinton caused it.
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This reply was last edited on 11-04-04 06:44:43 PM by ba.
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Reply 13 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 07:51:25 PM)
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Quote:
A lot of people believe that lack of morals leads to the breakdown of society.

Obviously. I'm arguing with their priorities. Osama or fags?

Something tells me Osama is a bigger threat to the American way or life, and the fact a plurality of Americans disagree with that truism is astonishing to me.
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Reply 14 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 08:09:14 PM)
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Quote:
Something tells me Osama is a bigger threat to the American way or life, and the fact a plurality of Americans disagree with that truism is astonishing to me.

If you think that the American way of life is supposed to be based on religion and nuclear families, then fags are a bigger threat.
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Reply 15 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 08:41:46 PM)
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Drah pretty much got it right. Since they believe ignoring moral values is the breakdown of society, then the breakdown of society is pretty important to them.

Also I'm not sure what British Agent is talking about. The Exit poll results I saw said that for those who thought Terrorism was the most important issue deciding their vote, Bush won by a landslide. However for those who thought Iraq was the most important issue deciding their vote, Kerry won by a landslide.

Quote:
How can you say that, when your country has entered the largest deficit in its history, from its largest surplus?

I mean, without lying.

The economy is not directly correlated with the government's budget.
When you have a budget surplus, probably means the gov. is overtaxing its people.

Spending the gov's money can boost the economy if done right, and considering the economy was declining at a scary rate when Bush was inaugurated, and then our WORLD TRADE CENTERS were flattened, and we hit a recession. Well guess what, we're quickly got out of it and the economy is recovering. Yea, a lot of government money was spent to get the economy going (and other things as well of course, wars), and it worked. And now the country is in debt?
Guess what, the economy recovering is a shitload more important than the national budget. Debts exist to be payed off, and they will be. You gotta spend money when you need to (yea, even if its a loan), so that what needs to be fixed gets fixed when it needs to be fixed.
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Reply 16 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 08:50:12 PM)
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Quoted from Dimi:
Drah pretty much got it right. Since they believe ignoring moral values is the breakdown of society, then the breakdown of society is pretty important to them.

Also I'm not sure what British Agent is talking about. The Exit poll results I saw said that for those who thought Terrorism was the most important issue deciding their vote, Bush won by a landslide. However for those who thought Iraq was the most important issue deciding their vote, Kerry won by a landslide.

Quote:
How can you say that, when your country has entered the largest deficit in its history, from its largest surplus?

I mean, without lying.

The economy is not directly correlated with the government's budget.
When you have a budget surplus, probably means the gov. is overtaxing its people.

Spending the gov's money can boost the economy if done right, and considering the economy was declining at a scary rate when Bush was inaugurated, and then our WORLD TRADE CENTERS were flattened, and we hit a recession. Well guess what, we're quickly got out of it and the economy is recovering. Yea, a lot of government money was spent to get the economy going (and other things as well of course, wars), and it worked. And now the country is in debt?
Guess what, the economy recovering is a shitload more important than the national budget. Debts exist to be payed off, and they will be. You gotta spend money when you need to (yea, even if its a loan), so that what needs to be fixed gets fixed when it needs to be fixed.


Three years ago, our dollar was only worth about $0.60 dollars US. Now it's worth $0.80. I think that's more the US dollar going down, than the Canadian dollar going up...

Then again, I really don't want to argue this topic, because I'm really not that interested/educated in politics when I should be.

Like for the rest of my life, for instance.
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Reply 17 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 09:01:28 PM)
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Quoted from Dimi:
When you have a budget surplus, probably means the gov. is overtaxing its people.
It only means the government is not overextending itself. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:
The economy is not directly correlated with the government's budget.
Wrong. Deficts lead to inflation and high interest rates. They are also an unfair burden for our generation to have to carry, given to us by those that came before, who could not monitor themselves. I do not want be paying off Mr. Bush's war, when I myself had no abillity to vote for or against him.

Quoted from The Wall Street Journal:
Many analysts, such as economist Fred D. Kalkstein, warn or imply that deficits are ultimately connected to higher prices via interest rates. Accelerated borrowing to pay for the deficits pushes up interest rates, and the borrowing tends to temporarily dampen or "hide" the effects of extraordinary levels of monetary growth.

(M I money supply - primarily currency in circulation and checking-type accounts - averaged over 10 per cent annual growth from mid-1982 to mid-1984, the highest sustained two-year rate since World War II; M2 and M3, much broader money measures, also showed abnormally rapid growth.)

"The longer the combination of disinflation [meaning less rapidly rising prices] and high interest rates persists . . . [alt some juncture," wrote Kalkstein, "the money will begin to flow from our shores ... the dollar will fall ... and the inflation inherent in the Fed's monetary stimulation will come home to roost."

"Bush is widely expected to lose this election, serve a second term, and then be named emperor in 2008."
This reply was last edited on 11-04-04 09:07:57 PM by Dante.
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Reply 18 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 09:04:25 PM)
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Quoted from Socrateius:

Bull, Bush kicked ass with the economy. Remember that good old recession we got because Clinton didn't know what the hell he was doing while he was riding on the economic boom from Reagan and Bush Sr's terms? Yeah, Bush made that recession his bitch. Kerry would've plunged the US into another recession. If I were to vote for Kerry it would've been for his position on civil rights and foreign relations, he would've done horrible with the Economy. If I were to vote for Bush, it would've been for the economy. Instead, I voted for who would do well with both: good old Badnarik.


So, wait, you're telling me that millions of job losses, rising health care and fuel costs, rapid inflation and a multi-trillion dollar deficit is not a recession?

Tax cuts and making war and two things you can't do at once. War costs money, money is earned by taxes. Without the money you create a deficit. When deficits are created, along with job losses and rapid inflation, you have a recession. The symptoms of a recession are as follows:

-People buying less stuff
-Decrease in factory production
-Growing unemployment
-Slump in personal income
-An unhealthy stock market

Hmm, seems to me that we are in a recession. National debt is not at 7.5 Trillion dollars to boot, making each Americans' share roughly $25,000 apiece. 1[/whisper]

As far as what happened while Clinton was in office, and slightly before when Bush Sr. was in, I present this: 2[/whisper]

Quote:
The NBER's Business Cycle Dating Committee has determined that a peak in business activity occurred in the U.S. economy in March 2001. A peak marks the end of an expansion and the beginning of a recession. The determination of a peak date in March is thus a determination that the expansion that began in March 1991 ended in March 2001 and a recession began. The expansion lasted exactly 10 years, the longest in the NBER's chronology


Oh, but wait, that's not all. Here's a little tidbit of info showing that middle-class americans are making less money each year: 3[/whisper]

Quote:
Median household income, 2003 dollars

1999 $44,922

2000 $44,853

2001 $43,882

2002 $43,381

2003 $43,318


In fact, the same site that produced that information also stated this:

Quote:
It seems to me that we all need to be a little clearer about what we mean when we talk about recession and recovery. Yes, the "economy" may be expanding. Middle-class wages aren't. For my money, the latter is more important than the former.


The media and government may not have announced that we are once again in a recession, but it doesn't take more than to look at the facts to know that we are in one.


[whisper]1
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
[whisper]2
http://www.nber.org/cycles/november2001/
[whisper]3
http://cascadiascorecard.typepad.com/blog/2004/09/recession_and_r.html
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Reply 19 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 09:12:03 PM)
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It gets more and more painfully obvious that no one here can think past their party affiliations, so I'm going to scrap the novel I had written here and just say "FUCK IT." That, and people need to stop fucking bitching about shit that has absolutely no effect on them.
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Reply 20 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 09:13:54 PM)
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I dunno why I bothered getting into this here.

I'd respond to both of you, but then you and about 5 other people would respond back and I'd have to respond to all of them and you know I just have the time and I really don't care enough.
If you wish to accuse me of making statements without being able to back them because I'm leaving the argument, feel free. I would do the same if someone did it to me when I was arguing.
All I can say is that if you know me you would know I don't make claims without being able to back them, and I hope you will trust that this occasion isn't anything different.


I will say one thing, though:
Quote:
Wrong. Defects lead to inflation and high interest rates. They are also an unfair burden for our generation to have to carry, given to us by those that came before, who could not monitor themselves. I do not want be paying off Mr. Bush's war, when I myself had no ability to vote for or against him.

I said directly correlated. Theres a huge difference between directly correlated and related to.

And with that i'm done with this thread.
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Reply 21 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 09:22:07 PM)
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How exactly does a president control jobs outside of government jobs?

Also.

We outsource 600,000 jobs.
We insource 5.4 million jobs.

Those insourced jobs have much better wages and benefits than American jobs. Anyhow, just my bit.
Would YOU be confident following the political party supported by fucking DRUG ADDICTS? Yeah, that instills a lot of confidence. "Hey guys, after we finish smoking up, let's go vote for Kerry."
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Reply 22 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 09:29:19 PM)
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Quoted from IF0:
How exactly does a president control jobs outside of government jobs?

Also.

We outsource 600,000 jobs.
We insource 5.4 million jobs.

Those insourced jobs have much better wages and benefits than American jobs. Anyhow, just my bit.


Some companies find it more profitable to outsource jobs due to taxation and health care costs. If a company moves a call support center to India, they only have to pay the people there about 1/7th of the average wage that they would pay americans as well, and they wouldn't pay for healthcare. By forcing these american companies to stop outsourcing, more jobs would be created in the US. Problems still lie within healthcare, but that's what Unions and HMOs are for. Granted, HMOs fucking suck, but it's better than nothing.

Also, the latest overtime law changes are tending to fuck people more than companies. Granted, it's an incentive to keep jobs here by allowing the companies to keep more of their money, but it's straining the american workforce, making people work longer hours for less pay than a year ago.

Alright, I'm done. I'm stopping before I create a small novel.
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Reply 23 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-04-04 11:23:55 PM)
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why the hell did we invade iraq? lets look at the facts

was iraq involved in 9/11? no.


did iraq have weapons of mass destruction? maybe at one point they did but no longer had them at the point of the invasion.


did iraq have ties to terrorism? no.


was iraq a danger to its neighbors? absolutely


Is america a bordering country with iraq? fuck no
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Pertti Susilainen
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Reply 24 of 31 (Originally posted on: 11-05-04 03:55:39 AM)
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Quote:
was iraq a danger to its neighbors? absolutely

Even that's debatable too.
-Ne con ic noht singan
-Hwre u meaht singan
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