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Amiodarone
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(Originally posted on: 05-27-04 03:09:32 AM)
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I was sitting around today thinking about religion and who actually believes in it and I realized there are two groups of people who seem to not believe. The people who just want to rebel and the more intelligent people. Has anyone else noticed this? Is it because the less intelligent people blindly follow without thinking, or is it that the intelligent people think they have it all figured out?
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Reply 1 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 04:02:36 AM)
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This would be better off in The Great Debate. Anyhow, I'm going to say that most people are born and bred into being raised religious, and if they can't find a personal reason as for why religion isn't for them, they'll mindlessly follow and throw away their money at a church every sunday (read: Catholics). Truth is, most people are just brainwashed to believe from a young age, and that's all they really know. They don't pay attention to things like, oh, let's say, facts, because they're blinded by their obsession for their way to be right.

Take creationism for example. These people are the cream of the idiot crop. They have "christian scientists" studying the bible and doing "research" trying to prove that the bible is the one true correct book. Pure idiots that are completely throwing real scientific research out the window.

Creationist Idiot Link

Defending Creationism mp3s link

But, yeah, it's all about the brainwashing. Even then, there's the people who "turn to god" after not being raised into religion, but personally, I think they're either simple-minded or suckered in while at a weak point in their life (on their deathbed, for example). It's not always a matter of intelligence either, at least when you go on a case by case basis. But, I'll bet the general consesus of religious nuts are a little slower than the average atheist.
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This reply was last edited on 05-27-04 04:11:24 AM by Wandering Idiot.
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Reply 2 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 04:15:52 AM)
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There are many intelligent Christians too. And I kind of know intelligent Christians who were raised as atheists.

Apart from the herd-type Christians, I think it's just a matter of how you experience things, and what interpretation you give them.

What I have noticed, though, is that intelligent Christians tend to have a more personal, liberal if you like, view of their religion.
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Reply 3 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 09:04:06 AM)
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Quoted from Sukkit:
What I have noticed, though, is that intelligent Christians tend to have a more personal, liberal if you like, view of their religion.


Read: We interpret it for ourselves, rather than let one person decide what an entire congregation or sect(?) believes.
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Reply 4 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 09:42:55 AM)
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Atheists who are complete idiots and call themselves atheists merely for the sake of rebelling get on my nerves. They give everyone a bad name. You do seem to be right, though, that there is little middle ground among atheists; they either seem to be idiots or reasonably intelligent.

And I know a good deal of very intelligent people who are religious, mostly Christian.
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Reply 5 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 11:56:59 AM)
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Quoted from TRC:
Quoted from Sukkit:
What I have noticed, though, is that intelligent Christians tend to have a more personal, liberal if you like, view of their religion.


Read: We interpret it for ourselves, rather than let one person decide what an entire congregation or sect(?) believes.

I would agree with the above statements. I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent person: I have studied religion and the philosophy of religion, and I am also very rational and science-minded. Yet I still consider myself to be religious because I follow my own belief system despite being baptized a Christian and attending church and church functions every Sunday.
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Reply 6 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 12:07:33 PM)
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I would have posted this in TGD but I figured some flaming might arise because of everyone's veiws. Also, I wasn't taking it too seriously.

Quoted from Sukkit:
There are many intelligent Christians too.
I think some people become or are Christians because it makes them feel better than everyone else. It's more of an ego thing for them, rather than a religious thing.
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Reply 7 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 12:47:27 PM)
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I see this the way freud explained it, that some people are servants "subhumans", and then there is the "übermensch", that some people are more prone to need a leader, and then there are the people who are the leaders, i consider myself and my ego to be my god, i'm only here to serve my own morals and own rules, i'm not gonna suck up to a 'fictive' god, with morals and rules i can't use....

And yeah, there are some who choose atheism as a rebel form, but the religious are more likely to be "servants of an idea" then your average atheist....IMO.

But it's also diferent in Denmark, here you can't be rebelious cause your atheist, cause here we really don't believe in christianity, atleast in my social group, and 99% of the people i know. we also have christians, but they tend to be annoying cause they are getting ignored.....
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Reply 8 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 12:51:11 PM)
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Quote:
I think some people become or are Christians because it makes them feel better than everyone else. It's more of an ego thing for them, rather than a religious thing.
I disagree. I think some educated "liberal" Christians continue to follow the religion because they don't want to change their lifestyle (because their friends are Christians and/or pressure from family), because they still have faith despite their skepticism on some doctrines, or because it's harder for them to conceive the absence of a deity in the world.

I'm interested in hearing what other self-proclaimed (or former) Christians think about this.
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Reply 9 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 01:00:42 PM)
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Quoted from Zippo:
Quote:
I think some people become or are Christians because it makes them feel better than everyone else. It's more of an ego thing for them, rather than a religious thing.
I disagree. I think some educated "liberal" Christians continue to follow the religion because they don't want to change their lifestyle (because their friends are Christians and/or pressure from family), because they still have faith despite their skepticism on some doctrines, or because it's harder for them to conceive the absence of a deity in the world.

I'm interested in hearing what other self-proclaimed (or former) Christians think about this.


I'd say.... You're not really disagreeing with Ileus. As he said "some" christians and you also said "some" christians. This also leaves more room for even more "somes" out there.

I think all of these are valid points. I know a lot of people who are pressured by the family to keep with the religion (people such as myself). Therefore these people (I) attend church and they (the family) quit bugging us about our immortal soul.

Overall, yeah, good points.
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Reply 10 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 01:26:36 PM)
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Even intelligent people are afraid. Fear plays a factor too. If in the end your wrong about Christianity then it doesnt matter, but if your wrong about atheism your get eternal damnation.
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Reply 11 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 01:41:18 PM)
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Quoted from Shady Milkman:
Even intelligent people are afraid. Fear plays a factor too. If in the end your wrong about Christianity then it doesnt matter, but if your wrong about atheism your get eternal damnation.

I don't think that's really the motivator you're supposed to feel good about.

Quoted from Surt:
I see this the way freud explained it, that some people are servants "subhumans", and then there is the "übermensch", that some people are more prone to need a leader, and then there are the people who are the leaders, i consider myself and my ego to be my god, i'm only here to serve my own morals and own rules, i'm not gonna suck up to a 'fictive' god, with morals and rules i can't use....


I don't think Christians are subhumans because they accept and believe in the existence of God. They simply choose to believe what they think is the most logical. A lot of Christians are leaders, or a lot of different denomations (see Lutheran, Methodist) wouldn't be formed. While we choose to acknowledge the presence of the real, living God, you believe that He is fictitious, I suppose. Which is fine, I don't want to force my religion upon you, no one ever accepts it that way. Your morals and rules may work for you, then happy day, you don't need, or think you don't need, whichever, God.
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Reply 12 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 02:17:08 PM)
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Quoted from Shady Milkman:
Even intelligent people are afraid. Fear plays a factor too. If in the end your wrong about Christianity then it doesnt matter, but if your wrong about atheism your get eternal damnation.


I don't know if that always plays a factor, though. My parents are pretty religious, and reasonably intelligent, but they've never professed a belief in any sort of afterlife, let alone any sort of damnation awaiting the un-religious. There are probably some for whom it is an issue, perhaps a result of the level of indoctrination that makes it difficult for them to think otherwise, which most likely to do with their environment or their experiences. And, as Zippo and Kitabatake pointed out, there is probably an element of conforming to practices in order to not ruffle any feathers as well, though I don't really consider these people so much Christians as I consider them closeted non-Christians.

From my experience, the most intelligent Christians are attracted to the religion because of the ethical guidelines contained therein. I myself am an atheist, but I must admit I have similar ethical prinicples. I just have a non-theistic rationale for them.

EDIT:
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Reply 13 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 02:36:45 PM)
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Quoted from Surt:
i consider myself and my ego to be my god, i'm only here to serve my own morals and own rules, i'm not gonna suck up to a 'fictive' god, with morals and rules i can't use....

Surt, this marks a historical moment. I completely agree with you.
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Reply 14 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 02:43:22 PM)
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Quote:
What I have noticed, though, is that intelligent Christians tend to have a more personal, liberal if you like, view of their religion.


I've found that as well. Speaking both from personal experience and from some of those I keep around me.
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Reply 15 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 04:05:29 PM)
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Meh, being the age that I am, I am kind of in a crossroads. I simply don't know what to believe.

I actually think there is very compelling evidence for both sides in the creationism/evolution debate. If you seriously look at some of the claims of creationism, you'd see that it's not total bullshit. There have been a few of humiliations in the evolutionary community regarding many things, so please don't act like it's all one sided.

I have been raised in an absolutely hardcore, conservative christian environment, my mom spends more time at the church than the house, and my dad is almost the same. My parents are wonderful people (even if I do give them the run-around a lot), and to say that because they put their faith in a god who may/may not be real makes them stupid is a very blatant generalisation. There are tons of very smart and educated people who have taken to the religous side of life.

I think Christians often come across as how they ought not to. I think the reason why Christians are not liked very much is because people see their message as too condemning, which I can understand. Realize though, that Christians (a term which I am not throwing around loosly, there is a difference between the actual pious, loving caring christian and the family who goes once every easter and christmas out of tradition or to increase their social status) bring their evangelism out of love. It's not like they're trying to hurt you. In their eyes, if you don't believe in Jesus, you will be going to hell, no ifs, ands or buts. Therefore, they feel they have to evangelise to everyone ASAP in order to prevent you from going to such an awful fate. They are up in the pulpit preaching to you because they care about you, not because they want to annoy you.

However, I think that there are some major problems with modern day religion. I can find flaws in any belief, be it theistic or atheistic. Therefore, I'll probably end up believing nothing, but I don't want to do that. I have yet to see any ABSOLUTE CONCRETE evidence that there is/isn't a god. I don't think that evidence going either way exists.
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Reply 16 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 04:09:39 PM)
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Quoted from Skizzles:
I actually think there is very compelling evidence for both sides in the creationism/evolution debate. If you seriously look at some of the claims of creationism, you'd see that it's not total bullshit. There have been a few of humiliations in the evolutionary community regarding many things, so please don't act like it's all one sided.

Point me to this compelling evidence for creationism. I've been looking for some of that all my life, should be quite interesting. Evolution is scientific fact.
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Reply 17 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 04:25:13 PM)
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Quoted from emtilt:
Evolution is scientific fact.


Oh? Is that why it is still called the "Theory" of Evolution? No, no matter how much some people would like it to be, evolution has never fully been proven, nor has creationism, and neither will be able to be proven. Why? Evolution will never leave the Hypothesis state, because it cannot be measured, observed in a laboratory, felt, tasted, heard, smelled, seen with a microscope etc. Same with creationism. This is why I often find these debates to be very futile, because we will never fully know until we are dead. I really don't want to get into some massive debate that I'll lose energy for about 3 posts in.

As for compelling evidence, meh, here's some tidbits for you:

Even Darwin admitted that if missing links couldn't be found, his theory was defunct. So far, what missing links have we found? For the millions of species of organisms we have today, we should be seeing TRILLIONS of intermediary fossils lying around everywhere. What do we have? Maybe 2 arguable fossils which no one is too sure about. Where's the dog with flippers that was supposed to turn into a whale? Where is the rat that had wings while turning into a bat? Without these fossils, the evolutionary trees everyone has drawn up are just speculations and imaginations.

The Big Bang is rather odd. Last time I checked, giant ass explosions don't create order, they create chaos. How the hell can some big random explosion that came from out of no where create this amazingly complex universe? If I blew up your car, and waited a couple million years, will I find a bunch of planets with civilizations whirling around everywhere? No, I don't think I would. Even if gravitational pulls had something to do with compacting the planets, ok, so you have big balls of dust everywhere, how is this shit from a giant random explosion going to eventually create us? I just don't see it. If I poor a bag of marbles on the floor, everything scatters into utter confusion and chaos, they don't create big beautiful designs and ornate patterns.

I think the biggest argument that could be brought against evolution is the numerical chances. Thinking scientifically, this whole big bang turning into our great universe was a one time shot, right? I believe that if anything is 1 to the 10^50, it is considered absolutely impossible. Go check the mathematical calculations on the chance of evolution and tell me if that one shot chance would succeed.

Anyway, that's just a bit of the evidence I find intriguing. I am not trying to say this is absolute fact nor saying I 100% believe in it, but go ahead and prove me wrong, consider it educating a young individual, it would be good for me I suppose.
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Reply 18 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 04:25:14 PM)
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"Humilitations" of the evolutionary theory are in fact readjusments and new discoveries brought forth by scientists, during that constantly innovating process commonly known as the "scientific method".

I wouldn't say Einstein "humiliated" Newton with the theory of relativity.

Creationists, on the other side, have never provided any kind of evidence that could support a single one of their beliefs. Evidence that could stand scientific scrutiny, that's it. Which excludes the Bible.

Creationism is a purely American phenomenon, and I'd like to point out how the scientifical community, and the rest of the world, cheerfully laughs at it whenever it is mentioned.
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Reply 19 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 04:27:01 PM)
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Evolution is Scientific Theory.

Edit: I am slow.
Edit 2:
Quote:
Creationists, on the other side, have never provided any kind of evidence that could support a single one of their beliefs. Evidence that could stand scientific scrutiny, that's it. Which excludes the Bible.


What do you mean scientific scrutiny? Who's debunked the bible and how? You're basically saying something against Creationism that is certainly viable to be used against evolution. His theory hasn't withstood scientific scrutiny, save the science based on it.
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Reply 20 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 04:34:10 PM)
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Quoted from HK:

Creationism is a purely American phenomenon, and I'd like to point out how the scientifical community, and the rest of the world, cheerfully laughs at it whenever it is mentioned.


Not that this really matters, but the biggest Creationism institute was founded in Australia.

You seem to think that Creationism was just something invented by Americans in recent years, and that Darwinism perpetually owns it or whatever. The ideas of Creationism and Evolution have been around since Greek and Roman times in one form or another. Tell the Christians in Rome in 20 A.D. who believed the Genesis account and sometimes died for it that Creationism was/is an "American" phenomenon. The two ideologies have been locking horns for eons.
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Reply 21 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 04:38:14 PM)
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Quoted from TRC:
Evolution is Scientific Theory.

Edit: I am slow.
Edit 2:
Quote:
Creationists, on the other side, have never provided any kind of evidence that could support a single one of their beliefs. Evidence that could stand scientific scrutiny, that's it. Which excludes the Bible.


What do you mean scientific scrutiny? Who's debunked the bible and how? You're basically saying something against Creationism that is certainly viable to be used against evolution. His theory hasn't withstood scientific scrutiny, save the science based on it.

It is considered scientific fact that evolution takes places. The mechanism by which it occurs is scientific theory.

And you can't "debunk" the bible because it cannot be looked at scientifically, only as a piece of literature. It therefore has no standing as scientific evidence, or accurate historical evidence for that matter.

Quote:
You seem to think that Creationism was just something invented by Americans in recent years, and that Darwinism perpetually owns it or whatever. The ideas of Creationism and Evolution have been around since Greek and Roman times in one form or another. Tell the Christians in Rome in 20 A.D. who believed the Genesis account and sometimes died for it that Creationism was/is an "American" phenomenon. The two ideologies have been locking horns for eons.

I don't think that's what he meant. I think he meant that most of the world, at this point, has accepted evolution.
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Reply 22 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 04:38:59 PM)
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Yeeehaw, herein starts ignorance fest!
Quote:
Oh? Is that why it is still called the "Theory" of Evolution?

Yes. That's it. For the same reason we have a theory of gravity. It's a wonder your ass is still stuck to the chair, ain't it?

Quote:
No, no matter how much some people would like it to be, evolution has never fully been proven, nor has creationism, and neither will be able to be proven. Why? Evolution will never leave the Hypothesis state, because it cannot be measured, observed in a laboratory, felt, tasted, heard, smelled, seen with a microscope etc.

What are you, a biologists?

Let me enlighten you: evolution has been observed in laboratory. Speciation has been observed in laboratory. Mutations, changes in allele frequency, diversification rates have all been observed in laboratory.

Have we seen a whale turn into an elephant? Nope. Why? It takes hundreds of thousands of here. Have we observed the basic process through which this happens? Yes.

Quote:
Same with creationism. This is why I often find these debates to be very futile, because we will never fully know until we are dead. I really don't want to get into some massive debate that I'll lose energy for about 3 posts in.

Nope. No creationist experiment has ever been carried out in a lab, mainly because:
1) There's no creationist theory to begin with. Creationist can't even agree with themselves over anything. Young Earthers, Old Earthers, Flat Earthers, you pick 'em.
2) There's no scientifical empirical process behind creationism. That is. Zero. Nil.

Quote:
Even Darwin admitted that if missing links couldn't be found, his theory was defunct. So far, what missing links have we found? For the millions of species of organisms we have today, we should be seeing TRILLIONS of intermediary fossils lying around everywhere. What do we have? Maybe 2 arguable fossils which no one is too sure about. Where's the dog with flippers that was supposed to turn into a whale? Where is the rat that had wings while turning into a bat? Without these fossils, the evolutionary trees everyone has drawn up are just speculations and imaginations.

Darwin is not to evolution what Jesus is to Christianity. Science don't give a fuck what Darwin admitted or not. His theory has been examined, empirically tested and observed. It has been vastly improved. And it has been shown to be functional, and in full accordance with what we observe in nature.

The fossils:
1)What is an intermediary fossil? Every species is a complete species of is on. "Intermediary" is a fallacy. We have millions of fossils. Each of them is intermediary. We have reconstructed tens of evolution processes. The horse. Humans, up to a point. And many others.
2) Are you aware how rare it is for fossilization to occur? Fossilization occurs only in given circumstances, found in extremely rare situations. I'd rather be amazed at the quantity of fossils we have managed to found.

Quote:
The Big Bang is rather odd. Last time I checked, giant ass explosions don't create order, they create chaos. How the hell can some big random explosion that came from out of no where create this amazingly complex universe? If I blew up your car, and waited a couple million years, will I find a bunch of planets with civilizations whirling around everywhere? No, I don't think I would. Even if gravitational pulls had something to do with compacting the planets, ok, so you have big balls of dust everywhere, how is this shit from a giant random explosion going to eventually create us? I just don't see it. If I poor a bag of marbles on the floor, everything scatters into utter confusion and chaos, they don't create big beautiful designs and ornate patterns.

Oh my, here we go again. Allow me to repeat:
Bing Bang Theory has nothing to do with evolution.
Bing Bang Theory has nothing to do with evolution.
Bing Bang Theory has nothing to do with evolution.
Bing Bang Theory has nothing to do with evolution.

Got that through your head?

Now, you are utterly ignorant of everything concerning physics, astrophysics and probably biology as well. Before making more of a fool out of yourself I suggest you actually go and read a book about these things. I suggest starting from a basic one.

Quote:
I think the biggest argument that could be brought against evolution is the numerical chances. Thinking scientifically, this whole big bang turning into our great universe was a one time shot, right? I believe that if anything is 1 to the 10^50, it is considered absolutely impossible. Go check the mathematical calculations on the chance of evolution and tell me if that one shot chance would succeed.

What the heck are you debating? Big Bang or evolution?

Big Bang is an educated guess at the origin of the Universe, with some compelling evidence (like background cosmic radiation) to its side.

Evolution is a proven theory. You want to count the numbers for evolution? Okay. Trillions of mutations take place constantly in trillions of cells. The math has evolution not as a likely chance, but as an assured outcome.
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emtilt

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Reply 23 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 04:41:31 PM)
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Oh, whoa, I didn't even notice Skizzles' post. Oh well, HK did a good enough job on it already.
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Reply 24 of 102 (Originally posted on: 05-27-04 04:43:52 PM)
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If you study the bible and compare it against other ancient texts, you can see that the bible is, indeed, accurate. An accurate piece of literature that chronicles the Creation of the universe. Granted, you can't check everything against something, but there's nothing that you can out right prove wrong. In fact, evolution has more holes in it that Christianity. (i.e. the missing "missing links") Is it so hard to think that instead of growing from a sea spore that was produced by a big bang into a human being, you were created by a being beyond your comprehension? Both things are beyong your comprehension when you think about it. Where did the matter needed for the Big Bang come from? "It was always there." My answer about God: "He was always there."

Edit: Work is almost over. I'll look at HK's post when I get home and have time.
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