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Please only answer if you are doing fantasy baseball...How many starts?
This poll has expired.
12 4 votes, 50%
13 0 votes, 0%
14 0 votes, 0%
15 0 votes, 0%
16 1 vote, 12.5%
17 0 votes, 0%
18 3 votes, 37.5%
Totals: 8 votes, 103.058%
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Hoff
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(Originally posted on: 05-08-08 10:48:36 AM)
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Its too late to officially change the rules, but we baseball is somewhat of a gentleman's game anyway, so we can go by the honor system.

Post your answer as well as voting for it so I can tell that nobody else is influencing the poll.


My vote goes for 12. If you aren't changing pitchers you probably wont reach that number anyway.

If you are dropping and adding pitchers for a legit reason, like your one guy sucks and you want to try out a new pitcher, thats fine just as long as you aren't just dropping and adding to get more points.
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Reply 1 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 10:57:34 AM)
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12.
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This reply was last edited on 05-08-08 03:05:29 PM by IF0.
drahnier
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Reply 2 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 11:35:48 AM)
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Quote:
If you are dropping and adding pitchers for a legit reason, like your one guy sucks and you want to try out a new pitcher, thats fine just as long as you aren't just dropping and adding to get more points.

What do you mean?

The only reason to have a start limit at all is to limit pitcher changing.

I voted for 12.
DRAHNIER
This reply was last edited on 05-08-08 11:52:36 AM by drahnier.
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Reply 3 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 11:38:28 AM)
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12. Also, you can see the Poll History, unless it's a fancy feature not everybody gets.

Edit: Why the hell did you vote, Adam?
đonne onwŠcne­ eft wineleas guma, gesih­ him biforan fealwe wegas, ba■ian brimfuglas, brŠdan fe■ra, hreosan hrim ond snaw hagle gemenged. Ůonne beo­ ■y hefigran heortan benne, sare Šfter swŠsne. Sorg bi­ geniwad ■onne maga gemynd mod geondhweorfe­, grete­ gliwstafum, georne geondsceawa­ secga geseldan; swimma­ oft on weg. Fleotendra fer­ no ■Šr fela bringe­ cu­ra cwidegiedda.
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Reply 4 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 11:55:53 AM)
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He can't resist a poll.
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Reply 5 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 12:45:44 PM)
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In general, I'm against the addition of arbitrary rules to any game. I don't really understand the widespread complaint here. It most certainly isn't unfair as it currently stands, because you all have exactly the same rules and players to work with. Further, I don't really want to have to bother counting my starts each week to make sure I meet an arbitrary honor system.

Additionally, how are you going to interpret the results? Are we going to take an average or median or something (that would make more sense for this sort of poll than just choosing the value that the most people voted for)?
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Reply 6 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 12:55:45 PM)
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Well, the pitcher-starts setting is already in the game, so it's not a completely fabricated rule, which is why i think it's not a ridiculous thing to do.

Of course i personally wouldn't mind keeping it at 18 either, but i can compromise.

Also i think it'll be pretty clear that we're going with 12.
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Reply 7 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 01:01:01 PM)
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I don't think it is clear we will be going for 12. Only 4 people in the league, out of eight, have voted. If other people vote for something else, it makes sense to take a median or average instead of going for twelve. Consider, as an example, if the other people voted for 13, 14, 15, and 16. It clearly would not be the most fair result to go with twelve. Using a mode in this sort of poll is an incorrect interpretation of the results because it is not applicable to a continuum, as this poll represents.

And I do think a change at this point is completely arbitrary. The current game setup isn't broken; we're just introducing pointless complications.
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Reply 8 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 01:02:01 PM)
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I know, but i don't expect anyone to vote for something else.
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emtilt

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Reply 9 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 01:03:31 PM)
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I plan on voting for something else, and Dimi expressed in the other thread that he didn't want 12 either. The other two are unknowns.
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Reply 10 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 01:04:04 PM)
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I see.

I guess hoff will decide, then.

It's not like it makes much actual difference exactly which number it is.
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Reply 11 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 01:07:43 PM)
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It is possible that someone could have 18 starts in a week without even changing any pitchers, though it is unlikely. It is likely, however, that someone would occasionally have 14 or so in a week, if the schedule fell right. It is unfair to limit such occurrences at all. I am very against setting it below 15, especially after the season has started and is weeks into it. If a team has almost all starters, it is not far fetched that there will be weeks with more than the usual number of starts if multiple starters start on the first day or two of the week.
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This reply was last edited on 05-08-08 01:14:16 PM by emtilt.
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Reply 12 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 01:12:22 PM)
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You have a point there.

The reason i don't mind the rule change is that it doesn't really change how the game is played, but i guess it does because having ten starting pitchers would be made less good, and maybe someone has that.

I suppose that is unfair.

I'm not sure why you and dimi would mind though, because you don't have enough starters to get above 12 starts except possibly like one single time.
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Reply 13 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 01:18:16 PM)
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Teams with one reliever (and, slightly less likely, two relievers) could be penalized by this change. In general, teams that focused on having more and better starters are penalized over teams that focused on relievers. Because you are changing this after the stars of the teams are pretty much set, it is an unfair change if you make it too low.

I mind for a few reasons. First, it's just a stupid complication I don't want to bother with. Second, my pitching could go in different directions because it has been plagued with injuries of late and this could limit my options. Third, I don't see what the big deal is with people picking up pitchers for extra starts sometimes. You clearly don't mind, since you were doing it. I don't mind, because it's completely fair. I don't see what the uproar is about.
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Reply 14 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 01:19:52 PM)
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Quote:
Teams with one reliever (and, slightly less likely, two relievers) could be penalized by this change. In general, teams that focused on having more and better starters are penalized over teams that focused on relievers. Because you are changing this after the stars of the teams are pretty much set, it is an unfair change if you make it too low.

If it actually DOES penalize someone in reality, i agree that it's unfair.

Quote:
Third, I don't see what the big deal is with people picking up pitchers for extra starts sometimes. You clearly don't mind, since you were doing it. I don't mind, because it's completely fair.

And i'd keep doing it with a 12 start limit as well, which is why i don't really care what the limit is.

Changing the pitchers around so much that you get 18 starts a week seems a bit excessive to me too though, as well as apparently everyone else.
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Reply 15 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 01:32:01 PM)
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The issue here is not having 18 natural starters, it's hiring temporary starting pitchers (most of us agree that's pretty lame). As far as I know, the league keeps track of all transfers, so how about this? If someone goes above 12, we investigate. If we find out the suspect has only replaced one, two, three pitchers (whatever number we agree on), then we proceed to call him a honorless prick. Otherwise, nothing happens.
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Reply 16 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 01:35:48 PM)
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I think it's safe to assume that no one will willingly go above whichever pitching limit we choose, because no one is enough of an ass to "cheat" in order to win at fantasy baseball.

And it's also probably safe to assume that no one will accidentally exceed the limit, except by one or two starts one or two times.
And it's even less likely that those one or two starts will make the difference in a match-up.
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emtilt

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Reply 17 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 01:42:37 PM)
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At 12, there's a fair chance of a couple people being limited once or twice. If you make the limit 14, 15, or higher, this becomes pretty much a non issue. I don't know why you're all so dead set on 12; this whole issue is silly.
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Reply 18 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 02:45:16 PM)
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I guess its not unfair because everyone can do it, but its pretty cheap to just drop and add pitchers everyday to get the maximum amount of starts. Its not really how its supposed to be played, and thats why that rule is in place, I just made the limit too high.

I think we would be fine if people just don't do it. If your pitcher gets injured and you make a change and you have more starts than 12 fine. If you decide that todd wellemyer isn't all that anymore and you drop him in favor of picking up and keeping someone else fine. Just don't be doing it just to get more starts out of your pitchers, because thats a cheap way to play. Thats how the whole debate got started, its not really a silly issue, but one that could be solved if people just don't do it.
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Reply 19 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 02:47:52 PM)
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I stopped reading the arguments half way through the thread, so i'll just post what I posted in the other thread.

Quote:
I agree with emtilt. We all have the same opportunity to do it. If you have awesome pitchers that get you 50 point starts or 30 point starts, you're not going to want to switch them around. But if your pitchers are only getting you 9 points, it would probably be smart not to keep him around, and pick up another pitcher. If he sucks too, drop him and get another. Its just a matter of whether you think the pitcher is worth keeping or not, its up to you to decide whats better for your team at any particular time.

For example, i'm not going to drop Cole Hamels, because he's awesome, but if I have a scrub on my roster (Andy Sonstantine) i'm not going to wait a week for his next start knowing he's probably just going to get me 9 points. I'll drop him for someone who might be able to get me 9 points tomorrow.
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Reply 20 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 02:48:06 PM)
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The reason I'm concerned is because I have 10 starting pitchers. I want to keep those 10 starting pitchers the same (barring injury) because they're reliable. However, if someone manages to switch their pitchers out and get 20 mediocre starts compared to my 10 quality starts, they can still get more points than me. That seems to me, to make having quality starters not worth much. So I'd like the number to be relatively low.
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Reply 21 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 02:51:43 PM)
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I plan on doing it, to be clear, in the way Dimi described in the other thread. I have a bunch of pitchers that I think are good enough to keep, but I have one slot that I have crappy pitchers in (ever since I lost on of my starters to injury), so I switch him out sometimes.

This is how games work. You have a set of rules, and they apply to everyone. If there is nothing inherently unfair about those rules, you play how you want within them and everyone gets a fair shake. That's why this is silly. You can't have people "just don't do it," because that's vague and there's no line. When does it become unacceptable? What if I have a slot where I'm trying out some people, and, as any rational person would do, I test people out in ways coinciding with their schedule? For any game, you have to have a firm set of rules and it is the players' responsibility to maximize their use of those rules.
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Reply 22 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 02:51:47 PM)
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My reasoning for supporting a 12-starts limit is that I don't want to go through too many players, because A) I like to keep most of my guys because I want to identify with them, and B) I don't know enough to make any sensible choices anyway. So basically, I'm not going to go through countless pitchers, but I know that can be an advantage, so I'd rather you guys didn't do it either. I don't think it's cheating, or unfair, or anything.
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Reply 23 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 02:58:10 PM)
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Quote:
I think we would be fine if people just don't do it.

Yeah, except my team is completely adapted to switching the pitchers around, because i actually made an effort to adapt my pitching set-up to using constant pitcher-switching and reaching the start-limit each week.
Which is why i have a lot of relievers and fewer good starters, and just traded the best starter of all so far to IFO for 2 relievers.

So if i "just don't do it", my team is useless, and why would i not do it anyway when it's been according to the rules ever since the start.
That's something you can't change halfway through.

However, like i said, i also think that doing it so much that i get 18 starts every week is a little excessive and makes too much of a difference.
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Reply 24 of 41 (Originally posted on: 05-08-08 03:03:10 PM)
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It wouldn't even be an issue if Hoff had kept the default rules. Even then, we still have 2 less teams than every other real ESPN league, which gives 20 extra starters to switch around.

I do understand what Emtilt's saying, that everybody could abide by the same rules. I just personally feel switching starters out a lot is cheap. A lot of my "permanent" starters I have now is because I picked them up and dropped others and kept the new ones. Picking up new ones every week takes less skill it seems.
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