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Ma-Newer
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Reply 75 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-23-14 04:43:13 PM)
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The best was when you finally found a new spot and it was some old dude that made you pay him for the door repair. I'm pretty sure I bombed a rock face and not a door. How do you repair the side of a cliff and does it cost money? Are their even door repairmen in this world where everyone lives in a sealed off cave with no supplies?
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This reply was last edited on 11-23-14 05:01:28 PM by Ma-Newer.
emtilt

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Reply 76 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-23-14 07:12:57 PM)
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Quoted from D_:
Quote:
(I'm also someone who has never liked any Zelda game that I've played from any point in history. But I decided to play the ones I haven't out of morbid curiosity.)


If this is anything like the curiosity which drove you to read all those animorphs books, then I expect you'll be miserable and playing Zelda games for the next year or so.


My motivation is a bit different. That was more wondering whatever happened to that piece of childhood. But I also read/watch/play a lot of things out of a sort of academic, historical curiosity about media, which is more what this is. Zelda in particular is really part of a broader masochism - I'm very gradually playing through the entirety of all of Nintendo's major franchises. I find the Zelda games by far the most tedious, though. I played Ocarina of Time recently (I had played it as a kid but never finished it), and I've really never found a game so uninteresting. I understand it's a appeal in a way, because it creates great expectations with its set up and reveal of Hyrule Field, and the wonderful musical score is so manipulative. But it's just totally predictable tedium in the second two-thirds of the game, mashed up with a narrative that even the designers don't seem to care about.

The NES Legend of Zelda that I'm playing now has actually gotten a bit more interesting since my last post, now that I have a better sword. The segregation of that basic upgrade from the main quest goals and also its heart container requirements are just transparent attempts at artificially lengthening the game, and they really detract from it. It's an impetus for the player to desire exploration, but they don't signal that well enough for it to be effective. The designers were aware enough that the illusion of scope through exploration was what made the game attractive, but the world isn't unified enough. But, anyway, the tedium of fighting goes down a good bit with even the first sword upgrade so I'm hating the experience a bit less.
This reply was last edited on 11-23-14 08:27:42 PM by emtilt.
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Reply 77 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-23-14 09:27:41 PM)
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Yeah you've gotta get that sword upgrade asap.
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Reply 78 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-23-14 09:47:29 PM)
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Legend of Zelda was the first game I knew of where you could like save the game and continue the adventure no matter how many times you died. I doubt it was the first, but it definitely seemed out of the ordinary at the time I was playing it. So for that reason it was an imagination capturing adventure not to be forgotten. I don't doubt that it's not actually a good game.
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Reply 79 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-23-14 10:31:15 PM)
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It was one of the first NES games to have a battery save feature. I can't recall if it actually was the first but it very well might have been.

Anyway, the primary issue with emtilt's analysis is that it takes the game out of the context of the time. Well I mean, it isn't actually a problem since good gameplay is pretty objective but when you compare it to the other blockbusters of the time you end up with games that are much, much worse. Have you ever played the original Metroid? Or Kid Icarus?
emtilt

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Reply 80 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-23-14 11:27:08 PM)
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I'm not sure how you are using "context" here. I'm not suggesting it isn't a notable historical moment (sales, the - first on that sort of console, as you suspected - save feature, Nintendo's legacy, and the popularization of more open worlds attest to that). I'm suggesting that it is poorly designed, even for what could be done on an NES. The fondness for many games of that era is ultimately an economic one; we had few games so we learned to be amazed by the ones we had (I loved - and still love - the shit out of some shitty early 90s games because I only had like 5 games). I'm taking away that context, but that's about it. This game capitalized big on that, because the implied scope of the game really plays on that desire.

I've played both of the other games you mention (recently, within the past year, not having played them as a kid). Metroid has many flaws, but it achieves a tone in a way that (so far) Zelda doesn't and I think it is a very important moment in games. It's a good point of comparison to Zelda, because fundamentally they are both exploratory action sequences. Metroid uses this to suggest an oppressive, lonely, alien feeling. The narrative is scant, but like effective survival horror games of later eras, it has a focused tonal goal.

Zelda does not - it just suggests hey, maybe, you know, like, explore, or something? I suspect that this is largely a result of it being a Miyamoto game. Miyamoto has very apparent anti-narrative tendencies, which is perhaps why early Mario games are such sublime, focused meditations on kinetic actions - they are dances through gamespaces. But Zelda has never really seemed to have a reason to be. It seems to exist as the anti-Mario. Mario goes left to right? Well, maybe our other series should have exploring or something. The most focused, designed aspect of the first Zelda (again, this is an early impression) is the combat because it is, in essence, a synecdoche for the game as a whole. It relies on a positional understanding of your place on screen, like Snake, much as the game hopes that the player will develop a positional dexterity with the gamemap. But the overworld exploration is random, the barriers designed to lengthen play instead cripple the combat, and the game suggests this is a developmental quest but can't decide if it wants a narrative. It's a mess (at least about a third of the way into it).

It is interesting to note the unit of searching required to upgrade and progress in the two games. In Metroid, it is primarily the screen/room. In Zelda's overworld, it is every single tile, randomly with soft limitations on number of secrets per screen/room. Zelda has mistook pixel-hunting for exploration.

That said, I like The Legend of Zelda a whole lot more than Ocarina of Time, at least, with its lengthy moronic narrative, telegraphed pathways, and contrived world.

Regarding Kid Icarus, I perhaps exaggerated when I said I played it. I didn't finish. I can count the number of games that I've started but not finished since high school or so on my fingers. I see redeeming features in things like The Legend of Zelda. I don't think it works as a whole, but it has glimmers of beauty. But with Kid Icarus, I just think it is stupid, and I don't think it achieves anything at all, and I have no interest in playing it any further. (Ok, that's not fair. It does interesting things with its musical score, and there are hints of a clever vision, lost somewhere early in development, of an elegant genre mashup and deployment of mechanics.) It just deploys arbitrary features to create difficulty, and none of them work together in any meaningful way. I imagine that it was a lovely idea for a game at some point, which was then destroyed out of fears of it being too easy or something. Kid Icarus is an interesting counterpoint to the first two Kirby games which came out a few years later (on the GameBoy and NES, respectively), because those games are such a clear rejection of literally every design philosophy used in Kid Icarus.
This reply was last edited on 11-23-14 11:39:50 PM by emtilt.
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Reply 81 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 01:10:56 AM)
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I brought up Metroid specifically because it was a twitchy exploration game. I think the tone of the game worked very well but I swear to God the puzzles where you had to freeze the little flying guys and then jump on them were so tedious.

Anyway, I have a better idea of what you're talking about now. I think by context, I'm talking about where the game came from (from a gameplay perspective). You're talking about certain aspects of gameplay that were stock for the time.

If you're interested check out a few Atari 2600 games: Krull, Adventure, & Berserk
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Reply 82 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 01:34:27 AM)
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ANYWAY, I should add that your criticisms are pretty spot on for the most part. I think the game lacks real direction and the plot is clearly a bland excuse to explore.

I think the level design is fairly dubious and you are correct that the "obstacles" typically don't do much to serve the adventure that takes place around them. Looking back it was very straightforward to see when I just needed to find the next level so I could get the right item to move forward rather than allowing me to explore at my own pace and find the items I wanted to find. The game puts a lot of obstacles in your way in a very obvious way.

On the other hand, I played that game for so many hours I can't even count them and I was excited about finding those levels and exploring them. As off-the-walls ADD riddled as I was, 8 year-old-me could sit down and play him some fucking Zelda and would put sit there and try to burn down every fucking tree in the forest looking for secrets so it must have done something right.

I also can't stand any other Zelda except A Link To The Past which was basically peak Zelda as far as I'm concerned. It's funny because I also think Super Metroid was the best Metroid (it took the alienated isolation mood you love about it and it amped it up).

As you can tell, you've stumbled on my wheelhouse as far as useless fucking knowledge about useless shit. I lived and breathed NES and SNES for like 10 years.
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Reply 83 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 07:51:55 AM)
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Yea I'd be interested in hearing emtilt's opinions on Link to the Past. I played and replayed that one several times as a kid.

Also I absolutely loved Link's Awakening when I was a kid, but I tried to replay it a few years ago and couldn't force myself to do it. Maybe that one wasn't as good as I thoughtt.
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Reply 84 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 08:29:41 AM)
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Is that the gameboy one? I played that one to death too.
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Reply 85 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 08:38:12 AM)
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Yea, the dreamy gameboy game that takes place on a weird island with a giant egg.
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emtilt

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Reply 86 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 11:05:04 AM)
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Will report back when I play the other NES/SNES/GameBoy Zeldas. They're all new to me, as Zelda didn't sound interesting to childhood-me (Sega and PC games were more appealing at the time). Same deal with Super Metroid.

Sidenote: I'm playing LoZ on Wii U. They really did a shitty job transforming the NES colorspace to a modern RGB one. Looks so dull and desaturated compared to the original hardware or third-party emulators. I have to "fix" it by setting my TV color balance to absurd settings. I can't believe Nintendo hasn't fixed this. Interestingly, the NES emulator on the 3DS doesn't seem to have this problem.
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Reply 87 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 11:41:17 AM)
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The only Zelda game I ever played and beat was A Link to the Past. I played a bit of Ocarina of Time for a week in the hospital, and it was okay.

A Link to the Past was fun, but got aimless quickly (I played the GBA version that had the Legend of the Foursword or whatever that I didn't bother with because it was my brother's GameBoy and I'm not getting together with friends to play GameBoy). I made it half way through the Dark World and then picked up a walkthrough so that I could figure out how to get to that swamp area in the bottom left and I was like "this would have taken forever" and then got kind of angry that toward the end of the game I got all these sweet secret power ups that I didn't really have much of a chance to use because I only had to kill the last boss.

It was mostly fun, though.
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Reply 88 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 11:54:55 AM)
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I played the first wii zelda game. It was actually kind of fun to swing the sword for a while and the first level was actually pretty good from a "zelda" standpoint but after that it lost a lot of its charm for me and the game fell apart as the narrative gained momentum.

I really feal like Zelda is at its best when it's sort of about aimless exploration. I wonder if there's a way to codify that into a workable game experience without it just being frustrating.
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Reply 89 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 12:44:55 PM)
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They are already working on an open world Zelda game, expected to be released for the Wii U in 2015.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda_%282015_video_game%29
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Reply 90 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 12:49:06 PM)
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Quoted from Zippo:
They are already working on an open world Zelda game, expected to be released for the Wii U in 2015.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda_%282015_video_game%29


Interesting. I haven't really cared to play any of the new Zelda games since Ocarina of Time (which I enjoyed thoroughly at the time). This one does spark a little interest, but I almost certainly won't ever play it unless it somehow comes out for PC.
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Reply 91 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 02:10:15 PM)
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Man, I miss top down view games.
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Reply 92 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 02:15:53 PM)
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Get steam, there so many people making nostalgia games these days. Many of them are good, even.
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Reply 93 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 02:18:39 PM)
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I have steam. I will check it out.
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Reply 94 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 02:49:21 PM)
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Here is a list I made by picking tags for top-down pixelated adventure games. Easy enough to play with the filter settings.

http://store.steampowered.com/tag/en/Top-Down/#tag[]=3964&category[]=2&os[]=win&p=0&tab=TopSellers

I've never played this one but it has decent review and holy crap, dat nostalgia. http://store.steampowered.com/app/234900/?snr=1_237_querypaginated__103
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Reply 95 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 02:52:18 PM)
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Shit beyond the graphics there is nothing nostalgic about this, but it looks awesome: http://store.steampowered.com/app/298630/?snr=1_237_querypaginated__104 Escape from prison mixed with minecraft.
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Reply 96 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 03:32:00 PM)
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ahaha wanna play that game.
Ma-Newer
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Reply 97 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-24-14 06:29:08 PM)
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Quoted from D_:
Quoted from Zippo:
They are already working on an open world Zelda game, expected to be released for the Wii U in 2015.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda_%282015_video_game%29


Interesting. I haven't really cared to play any of the new Zelda games since Ocarina of Time (which I enjoyed thoroughly at the time). This one does spark a little interest, but I almost certainly won't ever play it unless it somehow comes out for PC.
That sounds amazing. Before playing Skyrim, that is basically the direction that I wanted Zelda to take. Now that its already been done I'm not sure though but still looks interesting.

I also have that Anodyne game too. It had that gameboy style Zelda nostalgia going and did it well. Its limited in scope but good for what it is. Save for a steam sale and a rainy afternoon.

I didn't realize there was an Adventure time game.

Elliot Quest which I posted earlier is a very good Zelda II homage. La-Mulana was also a very good but damn near impossible NES style game. That one actually takes pleasure in punishing you like older games.
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This reply was last edited on 11-24-14 06:36:14 PM by Ma-Newer.
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Reply 98 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-25-14 11:37:51 AM)
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Been playing WoW again. Warlords of Draenor is pretty tight, probably the best expansion so far.
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Reply 99 of 450 (Originally posted on: 11-25-14 03:07:56 PM)
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I know a guy that writes quests for wow and he was pretty excited about this expansion
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